Player seeks advice on almost every Tee.

[madolive3]

We have a guy that plays with us occasionally who it seems  is always asking me which club I'm using or how or where am I hitting my tee shot.

He also takes several practice swings and takes forever on every shot. We hate playing with him but he works with us, so it's almost unavoidable sometimes.

When does the clock start on his swing, is it forty seconds to take a shot  and seeking advice from anyone but a teammate is a penalty?  Thanks, I just want to be sure when I warn him that I'll start adding strokes to his score.

Another thing, he also cheats when I ask him is score on a hole, he'll lie and shave some of his strokes., hate playing with the guy.

[Golfingdad]

We have a guy that plays with us occasionally who it seems  is always asking me which club I'm using or how or where am I hitting my tee shot.

He also takes several practice swings and takes forever on every shot. We hate playing with him but he works with us, so it's almost unavoidable sometimes.

When does the clock start on his swing, is it forty seconds to take a shot  and seeking advice from anyone but a teammate is a penalty?  Thanks, I just want to be sure when I warn him that I'll start adding strokes to his score.

Another thing, he also cheats when I ask him is score on a hole, he'll lie and shave some of his strokes., hate playing with the guy.

Sheesh ... sounds like the advice thing is the least of your worries with this fella!

But, yes, asking for advice (also giving advice, so don't answer him!) is not allowed. (Rule 8-1) says that it's a 2-stroke penalty for asking for advice.

[Rulesman]

Unless there is a Pace of Play Condition of Competition in force, there's not much you can do about his slow preparation. But the clock would start when it is his turn to play and he has arrived at his ball. If he is first to play that type of shot (drive, pitch to green etc) he would get 50 secs, otherwise 40 secs.

[Bananarama]

[JoePete]

We have a guy that plays with us occasionally who it seems  is always asking me which club I'm using or how or where am I hitting my tee shot.

He also takes several practice swings and takes forever on every shot. We hate playing with him but he works with us, so it's almost unavoidable sometimes.

When does the clock start on his swing, is it forty seconds to take a shot  and seeking advice from anyone but a teammate is a penalty?  Thanks, I just want to be sure when I warn him that I'll start adding strokes to his score.

Another thing, he also cheats when I ask him is score on a hole, he'll lie and shave some of his strokes., hate playing with the guy.

It sounds like your playing partner could use a talking to. You see this among beginners mostly out of ignorance. Even the stroke shaving thing, it can be hard to track strokes in your head until you get used to it. The best way of solving it is to play things like best-ball matches where he is paired with someone who will set him straight kindly. Much of golf is learned on the course. Nothing like a better or more experienced player setting the tone. Depending on where you play, you might even be able to get the pro or an assistant out on the course with you to play that role.

The Rule (6-7) is you are to play without "undue delay." What that means in terms of seconds is not defined in the rules (but the USGA does have guidelines for what a committee could define if it wants). The general idea is from the time when you could reasonably hit the ball (i.e. you have found it, it is clear in front of you, and you have the honor), you have 40 seconds. If you are the first to hit from the tee, fairway, or putt on the green, you get an extra 10 seconds.

The advice thing (8-1) can be tricky. You are entitled to ask and give factual information about the course, e.g. where is the 150 marker, distance from tee to a bunker. What a sprinkler head says. If someone says "what did you hit there" - you can always answer with "the marker right there says 148." Keep in mind, after the play of a shot, you can discuss things like clubs used, but be careful on the green. Someone misses, a  "My putt broke the same way!" can be advice because they still have a putt coming back. Again, pair the guy with an experienced player (who you will all owe a beer later for doing this) who can say "Oh don't ask them, that's against the rules." He can help the guy keep pace and keep track of his strokes.

[madolive3]

Thanks for the responses. I'm not sure with this guy. One of our guys is teeing up a drive, at address and this knuckle head is taking practice swings on the tee behind him. We are on the green at 18, I'm putting for par, as I take my stroke he rips the velcro on his glove.

Talking doesn't get thru to this fool, I've tried talking to him at times and he gets defensive.

[Hammer 4]

Thanks for the responses. I'm not sure with this guy. One of our guys is teeing up a drive, at address and this knuckle head is taking practice swings on the tee behind him. We are on the green at 18, I'm putting for par, as I take my stroke he rips the velcro on his glove.

Talking doesn't get thru to this fool, I've tried talking to him at times and he gets defensive.

Are you bigger than him...?

[Fourputt]

Thanks for the responses. I'm not sure with this guy. One of our guys is teeing up a drive, at address and this knuckle head is taking practice swings on the tee behind him. We are on the green at 18, I'm putting for par, as I take my stroke he rips the velcro on his glove.

Talking doesn't get thru to this fool, I've tried talking to him at times and he gets defensive.

Next time have the rule book with you and show it to him in black and white.  Just let him read Rule 8-1 and tell him that you prefer to play by the rules.  I would either make him take it to heart or I'd tell him he's no longer welcome in your group.  I've known a few guys I didn't like to play with over the many years I've played, and I found a way to avoid them most of the time.  If I don't like someone for a good reason, then I'm not going to be very worried if he takes offense when I tell him that I don't like his actions.

[MS256]

On the rules: If I was playing him for money, or even for fun, as a competition I would call him on any rules violations. Him "getting defensive" wouldn't bother me in the least. If we were simply playing together and it wasn't a competition I couldn't care less how many rules he followed, or didn't follow, or what "score" he supposedly shot. If he said something about his score I would tell him he didn't have a score.

On the club selection advice: I would probably say "you wouldn't believe me if I told you" which would probably be the truth.

On the slow play: I would tell him if he wants to play in our group he's going to have to get his ass in gear.

[madolive3]

Thanks again, the next time he asks why nobody called him, I'm just going tell him to learn how to play the game. He's 35, not like he's a kid.

[Hardballs]

Ha, yeah that's the direct route! Stop calling him or tell him straight, if he gets defensive when told straight, then defo stop calling, golf isn't for everyone, and neither is etiquette, I feel a bit sorry for the guy, he obviously wants to learn but can't grasp the etiquette side! I was guided through etiquette quickly when I started and was pulled on anything unkosher immediately! It's the best way, I do it to others now, it might come across As being a course hitler but nobody wants to play with a clown! My regular 3some aren't over strict between ourselves, but when playing amongst others we stick to the rules and show respect!

[bubble]

Thanks again, the next time he asks why nobody called him, I'm just going tell him to learn how to play the game. He's 35, not like he's a kid.

how about discussing this matter ? and dont use periphrases, go direct to the point. be 2 or 3 with the same opinion.

example : "people dont ask advice, it's against the rules anyway and it's time consuming. For this last point by the way you are slow, time yourself for 40 seconds max per shot please, and asap. if you need advice on organisation we can help at the 19th hole. any questions ?".

ok some take it hard but who cares ? is it rather one guy to take in or the whole golf course ?

with time the frustration disappears anyway and the guy changes is play.

[Ignorant]

Unless there is a Pace of Play Condition of Competition in force, there's not much you can do about his slow preparation. But the clock would start when it is his turn to play and he has arrived at his ball. If he is first to play that type of shot (drive, pitch to green etc) he would get 50 secs, otherwise 40 secs.

This time issue seems to vary a lot around the world and tours. LET uses that 50/40 sec principle which is the same as USGA guideline. PGA Tour seems to give 40 sec and additional 20 sec under certain circumstances ( http://www.pgatour.com/tourreport/2013/04/12/pace-of-play-rules-for-PGA-TOUR-and-Masters.html ). Then there are practices where the time is constant (40 sec) but the extra time for the first player in turn is allowed by the referee's interpretation when it is the player's turn to play.

I wonder why this could not be written in the Rules to make it the same everywhere?

[Rulesman]

I wonder why this could not be written in the Rules to make it the same everywhere?

The difficulty in putting PoP in the rules is that most competition organisers don't have resources to manage it.

Incidentally the R&A; recommend and use 50/40

[Golfingdad]

I wonder why this could not be written in the Rules to make it the same everywhere?

The difficulty in putting PoP in the rules is that most competition organisers don't have resources to manage it.

In my tournaments (GC AM tour - LA local) they do have PoP in the conditions and it works quite well.  They don't have that many resources (4 or 5 people taking care of everything all day for tournaments with 100-140 players) so they do it like this:

If you are in the first group of the day (or wave) on each nine, then you are required to finish each nine in the alotted time - which is listed on the scorecards, and is usually about 2:15.  If you don't, then every player in the group is assessed a 2 shot penalty.  (Last year it was a one-shot penalty)

Every other group throughout the day is required to have finish #9 and #18 within 14 minutes of the group in front of them, or else each player in the group receives a 2 stroke penalty.

The scorecards also show the time you should finish every hole were you to be right on the pace.  This way it doesn't come as a shock when you're 20 minutes behind schedule on the 9th tee.  I've asked almost every group I've played with if they know of anybody who's been penalized for slow play, and I haven't yet found anybody who has, and the PoP in these tournaments has always been good.

[rogolf]

This time issue seems to vary a lot around the world and tours. LET uses that 50/40 sec principle which is the same as USGA guideline. PGA Tour seems to give 40 sec and additional 20 sec under certain circumstances ( [URL=http://www.pgatour.com/tourreport/2013/04/12/pace-of-play-rules-for-PGA-TOUR-and-Masters.html]http://www.pgatour.com/tourreport/2013/04/12/pace-of-play-rules-for-PGA-TOUR-and-Masters.html[/URL] ). Then there are practices where the time is constant (40 sec) but the extra time for the first player in turn is allowed by the referee's interpretation when it is the player's turn to play. I wonder why this could not be written in the Rules to make it the same everywhere?

The Rules (Rule 6-7) do permit the Committee to implement pace of play policies, and, imo, that's all that is needed in the Rules. Again, imo, any player who has a pre-shot routine that is more than 20-25 seconds is not showing the necessary respect for his fellow-competitors or opponents, or anyone else on the golf course. I think the policies should not permit 40 seconds; it should be lower, but the first person to hit any shot (tee shot, second/third shot, putt) should have additional time. Those that are hitting any shot after the first player have the time taken by the previous player(s) to prepare for their shot(s). Watching Andrew Loupe (on the PGA Tour) take more than 1 1/2 minutes to play a shot was ridiculous and an insult to everyone playing and watching. TV should cut away from him after 20 seconds.

[Ignorant]

In my tournaments (GC AM tour - LA local) they do have PoP in the conditions and it works quite well.  They don't have that many resources (4 or 5 people taking care of everything all day for tournaments with 100-140 players) so they do it like this:

If you are in the first group of the day (or wave) on each nine, then you are required to finish each nine in the alotted time - which is listed on the scorecards, and is usually about 2:15.  If you don't, then every player in the group is assessed a 2 shot penalty.  (Last year it was a one-shot penalty)

Every other group throughout the day is required to have finish #9 and #18 within 14 minutes of the group in front of them, or else each player in the group receives a 2 stroke penalty.

The scorecards also show the time you should finish every hole were you to be right on the pace.  This way it doesn't come as a shock when you're 20 minutes behind schedule on the 9th tee.  I've asked almost every group I've played with if they know of anybody who's been penalized for slow play, and I haven't yet found anybody who has, and the PoP in these tournaments has always been good.

I do not want to get into the debate which system is superior, however, we have only two (2) appointed referees on each standard competition on the National Tour and we do not use the system you describe above. We have a PoP chart for each group but we are only concerned about the groups falling behind for no apparent reason. Also when falling behind for good reasons such as searching for balls we encourage them to move on. If they cannot catch the preceding group we may put them on the clock and only penallize individual players (not the entire group) according to the principles already presented earlier.

I am rather compelled to say that in the past 5 years on our National Tour a single player has been penalized for breach of PoP maybe once or twice, thanks to the activity of the referees on the course. I must say, however, it takes a lot of work from us and an awful lot of patience on some of the regular competitors on that Tour...

[Golfingdad]

I do not want to get into the debate which system is superior, however, we have only two (2) appointed referees on each standard competition on the National Tour and we do not use the system you describe above. We have a PoP chart for each group but we are only concerned about the groups falling behind for no apparent reason. Also when falling behind for good reasons such as searching for balls we encourage them to move on. If they cannot catch the preceding group we may put them on the clock and only penallize individual players (not the entire group) according to the principles already presented earlier.

I am rather compelled to say that in the past 5 years on our National Tour a single player has been penalized for breach of PoP maybe once or twice, thanks to the activity of the referees on the course. I must say, however, it takes a lot of work from us and an awful lot of patience on some of the regular competitors on that Tour...

Well done.

The closest I've seen on our tour is when one of the organizers came up to our group on the 16th green and told us that we were too far behind.  Then he told us he'd help us catch back up.  He rode with us along 17 to make sure that any lost balls would be found and then when we got to 18 tee, we were caught up.  He drive back to the group behind us to help them catch up.

Our tournaments are, all in all, very well run, I'd say.