My Swing (Joe Hill)

[Joe Hill]

http://www.swingacademy.com/videoplayer.aspx?id=32507

[Joe Hill]

Thanks Vinsk. I don't see anything in the right arm per se. My hand plane may be a bit closed to it's path at the top, and it squares going down. That's all I can figure. I'm not going to mess much with it because I don't do anything with with the right arm; just turn my rib cage back down and the right arm does it's thing.

If I'm accurate, my first comment was correct. The left photo is a good and powerful right arm position; the hands maybe not so much.

@Joe Hill

Hi Joe. When I pause your swing at the top of your backswing and place a straight edge along your club, the plane has your club arriving apprx 6" inside the ball.

Based on some experimentation today, I'm leaning toward the opinion that a straight line measurement is somewhat mis-leading. I know that won't sell here, but at least hear me out. I filmed a better swing today. It went a little shorter; 144 up that hill, but the swing was tidier. Indeed, at sternum high, the shaft was pointing behind the ball. A little above waist high coming down, it was dead on impact plane. I decided to graph the hand path. What I found is the hands are traveling on a gentle arc, not a straight line, up and down along the same arc. I think that's why no one can find the "compensation"; it happens gradual. For what it's worth, that's what I found.

[Abu3baid]

Hi joe.. If you don't mind me asking.. If you are generating club head speed using a pitching wedge to get 150 yards up hill; what kind of damage are you doing with a 5 iron and the driver? 300+ I can only assume, is that right? Thanks again

[Joe Hill]

Hi Abu3baid.The other day I put a good swing on the 5 iron and it carried 200. I had a lot of 180-190. I'm just getting back into golf after several years away. I haven't done much yet with the longer clubs, but have hit my 17 degree hybrid 220. I feel with the improvements I've made since then (couple of weeks ago), I'll be getting more out of it. There's a long story here. I managed to execute this swing fluidly for the first time 10 years ago when I was in much better shape at 55 yrs of age. I was dazzled by the distances and accuracy. I wasn't able to keep it though, and struggled again; to the point that I gave up due to lack of distance, figuring that was it, age had caught up with me. With some distracting life situations behind me and more time, I decided to give it one last go about 4 months ago. That little voice kept telling me I know this swing works. I've had to work through all the mistakes and old ingrained feels all over again, but am beginning to whittle it down to essentials, and once again am dazzled with the accurate distances. Today I have a better intellectual grasp of what I'm doing, and recently beginning to record my practice sessions is helping big time.

When I was young and swinging more standard, I could drive 260. It's scary to think of, if I knew then what I know today...

A little more than you asked for...sorry to run on, but thanks for asking.

[Abu3baid]

Hi Abu3baid.The other day I put a good swing on the 5 iron and it carried 200. I had a lot of 180-190. I'm just getting back into golf after several years away. I haven't done much yet with the longer clubs, but have hit my 17 degree hybrid 220. I feel with the improvements I've made since then (couple of weeks ago), I'll be getting more out of it. There's a long story here. I managed to execute this swing fluidly for the first time 10 years ago when I was in much better shape at 55 yrs of age. I was dazzled by the distances and accuracy. I wasn't able to keep it though, and struggled again; to the point that I gave up due to lack of distance, figuring that was it, age had caught up with me. With some distracting life situations behind me and more time, I decided to give it one last go about 4 months ago. That little voice kept telling me I know this swing works. I've had to work through all the mistakes and old ingrained feels all over again, but am beginning to whittle it down to essentials, and once again am dazzled with the accurate distances. Today I have a better intellectual grasp of what I'm doing, and recently beginning to record my practice sessions is helping big time.

When I was young and swinging more standard, I could drive 260. It's scary to think of, if I knew then what I know today...

A little more than you asked for...sorry to run on, but thanks for asking.

No problem, sounds very interesting.  Is this something you feel you can teach others?  I would love to get more distance and accuracy, especially if if there is a way you can teach it?

[Joe Hill]

Ok Joe! Let's continue on...

Videos:

Ok! Sorry if it was too much about my swing over there...wasn't my intent.

Thanks.

[Vinsk]

Not a problem. That's what this forum is about. All of us here like to discuss golf in all lights. I personally have researched the 5SK concept and found it well...true. I'm an 8 handicap but suffer from horrible inconsistencies. With quite good consistency I can boom the driver. But my iron play is a mess. One day I'm hitting beautiful 7i draws 170yds...the next day 150yd push slices. So to hear you're getting good results with such a shortened swing is obviously intriguing.

[Joe Hill]

I don't consider this a particular good swing after looking at the video. I'm set up with feet closed, the torso rotation is funky, and there is a lot of slop in it. What's notable is, despite all the flaws, it carried 150 yds uphill, high, soaring, and straight ( Titleist 735.CM pitching wedge). I have a better swing from today I'll maybe post later. It went 144 up that hill. But I'm still not where I want to be with it, technique wise.

I think the first key to note is what will be considered a 1/2 swing. I consider this a full swing. As my flexibility improves, I may turn a little further, but no more than what most people consider 3/4. Personally, I wish the PGA would clearly define a full swing in terms of "Viable Range of Motion" (VROM), rather than using a 90 degree turn as a measure for a "full swing"; a 90 degree turn is far from necessary for power, and most people lose vital positions when they try, making it hard work to return with any authority. Learning is much easier staying within VROM. I still fight the need to reach back a little further, but the results are beginning to make that less and less so. The deeper I get into this swing, the more I am thinking that lifting the arms relative to the torso is wasted energy. It's interesting to note, and most people don't know this, that if you rotate the torso without raising the arms, you would have to turn 180 degrees before the hands reach shoulder height, based on normal set-up. (Moe Norman, with his arm plane near perpendicular to his spine angle, would indeed reach shoulder height with a 90 degree turn.) By that measure, anyone who surpasses about sternum high hands is lifting the arms, requiring hinging at the shoulder joints.

If this makes any sense, I never worry about the club plane. I try to swing a stable triangle on it's plane, and allow the club to swing freely at the tip of that triangle. I do this by keeping the elbows down, relative to each other, and relative to the rib cage. Easier said, a single hinge swing (wrists only), which makes for a much simpler motion than trying to get the hands high.

I consider this a square swing. The hands and club face remain square to their arcs at least to waist high. I feel as if they remain square throughout. If club momentum creates any forearm rotation, I don't worry about it as long as I keep my elbows in place. And it is a great feeling to allow that right arm and hand to slam through the ball knowing it's square, which you can see in this video. I don't "do" anything with the arms; I just rotate the rib cage.

Lastly, I never think about sequencing, timing, "drop in the slot", hip bump or rotation, lag, knee kick, or any of the other swing thoughts which consume so much learning time. As long as I keep the right side brace, knee flex, head over the inside of the trailing thigh at transition, and arm pits "glued", rotate the rib cage is all I do. Everything else is automatic from there.

I'm happy to answer any questions and welcome critique.

Joe

[Joe Hill]

No problem, sounds very interesting.  Is this something you feel you can teach others?  I would love to get more distance and accuracy, especially if if there is a way you can teach it?

Down the road yes. I have more proving to myself to do, and I'd rather spend my time trying to make this swing second nature for now. Plus, I want to play again, but won't, until I feel reasonably proficient with it. The worst thing I could do right now is try to play and get lost on the course, reverting to my old feels.

I do have learning plans, learning drills, specific exercises, etc., but most people will probably not go along with the program I envision (extensive classroom and movement exercises before ever touching a club, then baby steps starting with chipping). I've been through all the trial and error frustrations of trying to learn it, so I know the difficulty of new and alien feels, and how to develop them without all the pitfalls. I plan to do videos on YT. When depends on my individual progress, and confirmation in my mind by consistently executing the swing accurately.

[Abu3baid]

Down the road yes. I have more proving to myself to do, and I'd rather spend my time trying to make this swing second nature for now. Plus, I want to play again, but won't, until I feel reasonably proficient with it. The worst thing I could do right now is try to play and get lost on the course, reverting to my old feels.

I do have learning plans, learning drills, specific exercises, etc., but most people will probably not go along with the program I envision (extensive classroom and movement exercises before ever touching a club, then baby steps starting with chipping). I've been through all the trial and error frustrations of trying to learn it, so I know the difficulty of new and alien feels, and how to develop them without all the pitfalls. I plan to do videos on YT. When depends on my individual progress, and confirmation in my mind by consistently executing the swing accurately.

Great.. Keep us posted.

[iacas]

Based on some experimentation today, I'm leaning toward the opinion that a straight line measurement is somewhat mis-leading. I know that won't sell here, but at least hear me out. I filmed a better swing today. It went a little shorter; 144 up that hill, but the swing was tidier. Indeed, at sternum high, the shaft was pointing behind the ball. A little above waist high coming down, it was dead on impact plane. I decided to graph the hand path. What I found is the hands are traveling on a gentle arc, not a straight line, up and down along the same arc. I think that's why no one can find the "compensation"; it happens gradual. For what it's worth, that's what I found.

It was not a matter of "not being able to find it." It was a matter of not caring to look for it. Your swing has a compensation many of us would prefer not to see.

I also am at the point where I'm calling BS on the 150-yard PW, and you've yet to provide any proof. Furthermore, if somehow you did manage to hit the ball 150 with that swing at your age, there's nothing to say that you couldn't hit it significantly farther with a more "traditional" swing (for lack of a better word).

Down the road yes. I have more proving to myself to do, and I'd rather spend my time trying to make this swing second nature for now. Plus, I want to play again, but won't, until I feel reasonably proficient with it. The worst thing I could do right now is try to play and get lost on the course, reverting to my old feels.

I do have learning plans, learning drills, specific exercises, etc., but most people will probably not go along with the program I envision (extensive classroom and movement exercises before ever touching a club, then baby steps starting with chipping). I've been through all the trial and error frustrations of trying to learn it, so I know the difficulty of new and alien feels, and how to develop them without all the pitfalls. I plan to do videos on YT. When depends on my individual progress, and confirmation in my mind by consistently executing the swing accurately.

So you're here to sell us something eventually. Okay. We're very open-minded here, but more proof is required, and you've never said anything to answer the questions asked of you.

[Phil McGleno]

Of course hes here to sell us something-hes another of these swing kooks who thinks he has figured something out and can teach it to everyone.-He'll fail and be gone in a minute, or ten, maybe even 15.[quote name="iacas" url="/t/74788/my-swing-joe-hill#post_994734"] So you're here to sell us something eventually. Okay. We're very open-minded here, but more proof is required, and you've never said anything to answer the questions asked of you. [/quote] You can look it up at the rest of his swing acadmy pages-Pure and Simple Golf Swing. @Joe Hill your hands the clubhead your elbows are not staying square to your arc. You dont feel any rotation but if you watch the video you clearly rotated somewhat. Im gonna try to find a thread about the "square" gofl swing on here and will edit the post if I can find it. You arent in those positions.'' http://thesandtrap.com/t/31893/clubface-square-to-the-plane http://thesandtrap.com/t/44429/square-to-the-arc-from-roy

[Abu3baid]

Well, I guess I will just stick to the professional advice I am currently getting.. Once you figure things out joe let me know please..

[Vinsk]

So......Doug Tewell? Square to square? Is that what's going on here?

[Joe Hill]

It was not a matter of "not being able to find it." It was a matter of not caring to look for it. Your swing has a compensation many of us would prefer not to see.

I also am at the point where I'm calling BS on the 150-yard PW, and you've yet to provide any proof. Furthermore, if somehow you did manage to hit the ball 150 with that swing at your age, there's nothing to say that you couldn't hit it significantly farther with a more "traditional" swing (for lack of a better word).

So you're here to sell us something eventually. Okay. We're very open-minded here, but more proof is required, and you've never said anything to answer the questions asked of you.

I haven't answered for two reasons. First, I haven't figured out the multi option yet, nor have I figured out how to copy/paste. Per your request, I'd like to figure all that out prior to much more discussion. Additionally, it's because our discussion caused me to do some serious study and contemplation. In response, I plan to start a thread illustrating why I think the TGM measuring guide is incorrect, and that my swing is on plane. I sense that specific topic warrants it's own thread, no? That is the basis of our disagreement. I'll await word from you before I start it. Fair enough?

I have an appointment to be filmed and measured on Wed June 4 by a professional. The trick for me is to be able to get one of my correctly executed swings on film. I think I'm confident enough to pull it off.

No, I am not here to sell anything for money. I am here to "sell" something though. The purity of my good hits and the distances I am getting tell me I may have something to offer in understanding the golf swing. I say may. I'm willing to put it to the test of critique here.

And by the way. I'm calling BS on the compensation. You want me to prove my claim and you won't show me the compensation? BS until you do.

[Joe Hill]

Well, I guess I will just stick to the professional advice I am currently getting..

Once you figure things out joe let me know please..

That's fine. I'm in no position to try and teach at this juncture, and I really don't see having students. On a very limited basis down the road, maybe. If I am on to something that could improve golf, my main interest is to get it down in understandable form somewhere before I die. I freely discuss all aspects of my theories and findings for anyone who wishes to know. If you have professional guidance at present, then by all means, you should stick to one program.

[Joe Hill]

Of course hes here to sell us something-hes another of these swing kooks who thinks he has figured something out and can teach it to everyone.-He'll fail and be gone in a minute, or ten, maybe even 15.

You can look it up at the rest of his swing acadmy pages-Pure and Simple Golf Swing.

@Joe Hill your hands the clubhead your elbows are not staying square to your arc. You dont feel any rotation but if you watch the video you clearly rotated somewhat. Im gonna try to find a thread about the "square" gofl swing on here and will edit the post if I can find it. You arent in those positions.''

http://thesandtrap.com/t/31893/clubface-square-to-the-plane

http://thesandtrap.com/t/44429/square-to-the-arc-from-roy

Read my response to iacas about selling something.

In the swing I posted, indeed I allowed club momentum to raise the left arm a bit, which skews the triangle plane slightly. I normally attempt to not allow that. There is a fine line between elasticity and allowing the arms to follow club momentum at change of direction. I'm still unsure of which way works best, so am experimenting with it. Regarding rotation of the forearms, it will take a better camera than what I use to detect any. When I watch the back of the left hand, I see it remaining square to it's arc. I see the palm of the right hand dead square to it's return arc, and accept for the slight "loop" due to weight shift, I see the same hand arc traced going down. If ulnar rotation occurs late in the swing, I do not consider that a problem, as long as the elbows remain down, relative to one another, and relative to the rib cage. For more flexible swingers, the elbows will rotate around the thorax as the shoulders separate from the rib cage, but only near the top. I'm finding there is no need to coil that much. coiling the thorax and rib cage as one unit is providing more power than I know what to do with, but to each his own there.

[Joe Hill]

So......Doug Tewell? Square to square? Is that what's going on here?

No. Tewell is resurrecting the John Jacobs Square to Square, which came out in the early 70's or so. I studied the article in Golf Digest and applied it. It works to a degree. Controlling the position of that left thumb at the top gave me a 260 drive with a draw back in those days, but it didn't hold up for me. While Doug does a good job of retaining the triangle, he does allow it to raise considerably,