Amateur Status violation?

[Finn725]

If you know of a club that is promoting a cash prize tournament for amateur golfers (ie: 4 man scramble that will pay the winning team $1000/player) - do you feel obligated under USGA rules to say anything? What if you know some of the players, and compete against them in State Association amateur events? Do you talk to the host club about making the event compliant for amateurs?

[iacas]

I'd inquire at the club before doing anything first. Maybe you read it wrong? Is it cash or is it a combination of cash and credit or something to get to the $1k?

[Finn725]

100% cash! the club knows it against the rules... Pro says "everyone does it". It's being promoted with mass emails titled "Big Cash Payout".

[rob0225]

How do they prevent cheating on a big cash prize like that?  I refuse to play scrambles anymore because of all the cheating I've seen over the years.

[Jgarner]

This may sound like a silly question but does it make a difference that a 4 man scramble isn't really a game of golf (i.e. played under the rules of golf) and is really just a gambling event?  As with the previous poster, I have to wonder who would really be willing to put money into an event where there will be cheating everywhere.

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finn725

If you know of a club that is promoting a cash prize tournament for amateur golfers (ie: 4 man scramble that will pay the winning team $1000/player) - do you feel obligated under USGA rules to say anything? What if you know some of the players, and compete against them in State Association amateur events? Do you talk to the host club about making the event compliant for amateurs?

Quote:

8-1. Decision On A Breach

If a possible breach of the Rules by a person claiming to be an amateur golfer comes to the attention of the Committee , it is a matter for the Committee to decide whether a breach has occurred. Each case will be investigated to the extent deemed appropriate by the Committee and considered on its merits. The decision of the Committee is final, subject to an appeal as provided in these Rules .

. . .

Committee

The " Committee " is the appropriate Committee of the Governing Body

Governing Body

The “ Governing Body ” for the administration of the Rules of Amateur Status in any country is the national golf union or association of that country.

Note: In Great Britain and Ireland, the R&A; is the Governing Body .

Forward a copy of the email announcing the event to the "Committee" of the governing body in your jurisdiction and let them handle it.  In your case, assuming Praire Dunes is in the US, the governing body in question would be the USGA.  I wasn't able to find the name or email address of the USGA Committee on Amateur status, but if you send it to the USGA I'm sure they will get it to the right place.

[Finn725]

To be clear, this event is not at Prairie Dunes or promoted by Prairie Dunes

[turtleback]

To be clear, this event is not at Prairie Dunes or promoted by Prairie Dunes

I used Praire Dunes because that is the only indication I had as to your location and therefore what your national governing body is.  No implication that it was Praire Dunes that was ignoring the amateur rules was intended.

[luu5]

This may sound like a silly question but does it make a difference that a 4 man scramble isn't really a game of golf (i.e. played under the rules of golf) and is really just a gambling event?

This is interesting point. As scramble is not played under (full) RoG, why would it affect amateur status?

[Rulesman]

This is interesting point. As scramble is not played under (full) RoG, why would it affect amateur status?

It would seem so. From the Rules on Amateur Status

An amateur golfer, whether he plays competitively or recreationally , is one who plays golf for the challenge it presents, not as a profession and not for financial gain.

[Jgarner]

It would seem so. From the Rules on Amateur Status

An amateur golfer, whether he plays competitively or recreationally, is one who plays golf for the challenge it presents, not as a profession and not for financial gain.

I also noticed somewhere in the Rules on Amateur Status where it states that it does not matter if the competition takes place on the course, on the putting green or on the driving range.  So I guess that covers just about any type of game that you use a golf club and a golf ball whether its played under the rules of golf or not.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by luu5

This is interesting point. As scramble is not played under (full) RoG, why would it affect amateur status?

It would seem so. From the Rules on Amateur Status

An amateur golfer, whether he plays competitively or recreationally, is one who plays golf for the challenge it presents, not as a profession and not for financial gain.

But the rules don't even recognize a scramble as golf, so how can it be considered as earning money at golf?

[Rulesman]

But the rules don't even recognize a scramble as golf, so how can it be considered as earning money at golf?

The Rules of Golf and the Rules of Amateur Status are two separate entities. There is nothing in the RoG about Amateur status

Of course the Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the Teeing Ground into the Hole by a Stroke or successive Strokes in accordance with the Rules . That does not mean that if a player breaches a Rule, he is not playing golf.

Scrambles are not 'not recognised'. It simply that the format is not specified in the Definitions and that inherently, Rules will be breached when being played. If play is conducted other than in accordance with the Rules of Golf, the Rules of Golf Committee will not give a decision on any question. 'Conducted' means that the committee has determined that the R0G will not be followed not that individual players may or may not breach a rule.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

But the rules don't even recognize a scramble as golf, so how can it be considered as earning money at golf?

The Rules of Golf and the Rules of Amateur Status are two separate entities. There is nothing in the RoG about Amateur status

Of course the Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the Teeing Ground into the Hole by a Stroke or successive Strokes in accordance with the Rules. That does not mean that if a player breaches a Rule, he is not playing golf.

Scrambles are not 'not recognised'. It simply that the format is not specified in the Definitions and that inherently, Rules will be breached when being played. If play is conducted other than in accordance with the Rules of Golf, the Rules of Golf Committee will not give a decision on any question. 'Conducted' means that the committee has determined that the R0G will not be followed not that individual players may or may not breach a rule.

Yeah... my comment was only semi-serious.  Should have added an emoticon. Since teaching golf as a profession, even if you aren't officially a PGA Pro, is a violation of amateur status, then winning too large a purse in any tournament can also violate it.  There are some indistinct lines in the area of prizes won for such things as a hole in one pot where the players contribute to the prize.  I won half of a $2400 pot when I made my first Ace, but since the pot was totally made up of voluntary player contributions, it's considered gambling, not prize money, and falls into that fuzzy boundary.  Had the pot been donated to the tournament, then it would have been prize money.  Although it seems like a large pot, the money had been collecting for 2½ years since the last winner (the voluntary contribution was $1.00 each tournament for any player who wanted a chance at the pot), and two of us aced the same hole within 20 minutes of each other in the Club Championship.

The distinction between playing for prize money, which violates the Rules of Amateur Status, and gambling, which does not, is essential to the Rules of Amateur Status. The USGA urges amateur golfers to seek USGA guidance whenever it is unclear whether the prize format constitutes playing for prize money or gambling and, in the absence of such guidance, not to play for cash prizes. Such a course of action would ensure that no one jeopardizes his amateur status.

The USGA does not object to informal gambling or wagering among individual golfers or teams of golfers when the players in general know each other, participation in the wagering is optional and is limited to the players, the sole source of all money won by the players is advanced by the players on themselves or their own teams and the amount of money involved is not generally considered excessive such that the primary purpose is the playing of the game for enjoyment.

On the other hand, organized events open to the general public and designed or promoted to create cash prizes are not approved by the USGA. Golfers participating in such events without first irrevocably waiving their right to prize money are deemed by the USGA to be playing for prize money, in breach of Rule 3-1.

The USGA is opposed to and urges its Member Clubs, all golf associations and all other sponsors of golf competitions to prohibit types of gambling such as: (1) Calcuttas, (2) other auction pools, (3) pari-mutuels and (4) any other forms of gambling organized for general participation or permitting participants to bet on someone other than themselves or their teams. The USGA may inform players they have forfeited their amateur status or deny entry in USGA Championships and membership on USGA teams for international competitions to players whose activities in connection with golf gambling, whether organized or individual, are considered by the USGA to be contrary to the best interests of golf.