Being tall an advantage?

[Lihu]

22 hours ago, natureboy said:

I would bet that the chart below also is correlated somewhat with increasing height. It's not impossible to become a low HCP in time if you are shorter than average, but it will tend to make it a bit harder. You'll have to compensate with increase accuracy, consistency, putting and/or short game.

The maximum distance for taller players is definitely higher on average, but the average distance maybe not so much? Remember that longer doesn't mean more readily playable.

[natureboy]

14 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Actually, your plot does not show as much difference as I would have expected.

That chart is from a golf magazine. My plot is in post # 279. The distance data is possibly a bit more recent, but my fitted trendline was a bit steeper, because there was no player averaging under 260 yards. An inch of height in the PGA appears to be worth about 1.6 yards on average.

5 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The maximum distance for taller players is definitely higher on average, but the average distance maybe not so much? Remember that longer doesn't mean more readily playable.

See my point in post #282.

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

See my point in post #282.

All I meant is that the average player is not going to benefit from simply being taller. They still have to be able to hit the same spot on the face.

[natureboy]

4 hours ago, Lihu said:

All I meant is that the average player is not going to benefit from simply being taller. They still have to be able to hit the same spot on the face.

Depends who you're comparing them too. Vs. their 'average peer' player with similar training and other important innate golf skills they will generally have an advantage in generating more ball speed with less effort. Taller people of average build and training are on average stronger than shorter people of average build and training.

Edited August 18, 2016 by natureboy

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Lihu said:

All I meant is that the average player is not going to benefit from simply being taller. They still have to be able to hit the same spot on the face.

Yes they will. They will have more muscle and a longer radius, and thus can still hit the ball farther.

[Natural Patrick]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes they will. They will have more muscle and a longer radius, and thus can still hit the ball farther.

How tall is Jason Day, Rory Mcillroy, Jordan Spieth, Rickie Fowler, Justin Thomas. the list goes on and on. Hitting the ball a long way is no doubt an advantage. On the other hand look at the top 10 in driving distance on the the tour and tell me their WGR.

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, Natural Patrick said:

How tall is Jason Day, Rory Mcillroy, Jordan Spieth, Rickie Fowler, Justin Thomas. the list goes on and on. Hitting the ball a long way is no doubt an advantage. On the other hand look at the top 10 in driving distance on the the tour and tell me their WGR.

Your point?

They'd hit the ball farther if they were taller.

The stats on this type of thing are pretty clear.

---

Dustin Johnson - won a major and a WGC this year
J.B. Holmes - 27th in money this year
Tony Finau - PGA Tour winner this year
Bubba Watson - OWGR 6
Andrew Loupe - $1M+ earned this year
Jason Kokrak - $1.3M+
Gary Woodland - Top 60 OWGR, money
Luke List - okay, you got one
Hudson Swafford - 86th FedExCup
Rory McIlroy - Uhh, suffice to say…

---

We're not debating the advantage of hitting the ball far. That's a pretty well known fact at this point.

Nor is anyone saying that "if you hit the ball far you will be a great player."

Being tall is an advantage. That is what's being discussed. And it's true, generally.

[Natural Patrick]

29 minutes ago, iacas said:

Your point?

They'd hit the ball farther if they were taller.

The stats on this type of thing are pretty clear.

---

Dustin Johnson - won a major and a WGC this year
J.B. Holmes - 27th in money this year
Tony Finau - PGA Tour winner this year
Bubba Watson - OWGR 6
Andrew Loupe - $1M+ earned this year
Jason Kokrak - $1.3M+
Gary Woodland - Top 60 OWGR, money
Luke List - okay, you got one
Hudson Swafford - 86th FedExCup
Rory McIlroy - Uhh, suffice to say…

---

We're not debating the advantage of hitting the ball far. That's a pretty well known fact at this point.

Nor is anyone saying that "if you hit the ball far you will be a great player."

Being tall is an advantage. That is what's being discussed. And it's true, generally.

How many players have made a Million dollars on tour this year? How many of them are what you consider Tall?

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Natural Patrick said:

How many players have made a Million dollars on tour this year? How many of them are what you consider Tall?

Do you disagree that being tall is an advantage?

Because if you do, go back through the thread and re-read.

[Natural Patrick]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

Do you disagree that being tall is an advantage?

Not necessarily, It may be an advantage. However, how much of an advantage is it when it comes to the WGR?  Lets take a look at the top 25 in the chase for the Fed Ex cup in the last tournament of the year. What do consider tall?

3 minutes ago, Natural Patrick said:

Never mind, I know where this is going. I have to go to work at 4am

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by Natural Patrick

[iacas]

Just now, Natural Patrick said:

Not necessarily, It may be an advantage. However, how much of an advantage is it when it comes to the GWR?  Lets take a look at the top 25 in the chase for the Fed Ex cup in the last tournament of the year. What do consider tall?

Just re-read the thread. I'm not starting over from the beginning, nor am I entertaining your straw man argument with (relatively) small sample sizes that being tall = automatically higher in the OWGR.

Golf is a multifaceted game and an advantage in one area might not offset a deficiency in some other area. Tony Finau might not be on the PGA Tour if he swung 10 MPH slower; instead, he's a PGA Tour winner. We don't know. All we can talk about is generalities, and in general… being tall is an advantage, mainly because it helps you hit the ball farther.

[Natural Patrick]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Just re-read the thread. I'm not starting over from the beginning, nor am I entertaining your straw man argument with (relatively) small sample sizes that being tall = automatically higher in the OWGR.

Golf is a multifaceted game and an advantage in one area might not offset a deficiency in some other area. Tony Finau might not be on the PGA Tour if he swung 10 MPH slower; instead, he's a PGA Tour winner. We don't know. All we can talk about is generalities, and in general… being tall is an advantage, mainly because it helps you hit the ball farther.

Being a top 25 putter on tour is an advantage as well. I guess I need to wait for the thread " does being a not so tall puttter give you an adavantage"

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Natural Patrick said:

Being a top 25 putter on tour is an advantage as well. I guess I need to wait for the thread " does being a not so tall puttter give you an adavantage"

You're welcome to stop arguing just for the sake of arguing any time.

Being tall is an advantage. There are many advantages to be had in the game. Being tall helps.

P.S. Putting and height was already addressed (briefly). IIRC, a very small negative correlation.

[natureboy]

On 8/16/2016 at 11:51 PM, natureboy said:

Here's some data representing ~ 190 regular players on the PGA tour. The average height for this group is 72", 2" over the US Average.

On 8/17/2016 at 11:37 AM, natureboy said:

How then to explain the much steeper slope of the trend for ball speed to height vs. swing speed to height?

I would say that because they are stronger overall that the taller player is able to generate competitive club head speed with relatively less effort (not swinging out of their shoes) which translates into better contact (on average). I can't think of another physiological reason for the difference in the trend lines.

So because they can generate club head speed with an easier swing (think Ernie Els) they have and edge in generating good impact conditions at a higher swing speed than a shorter player who has to put more total body effort into it. Of course that is with all other skills / abilities equal, but it's a significant built-in edge for a taller player to overcome other below average skills/abilities.

There is another possible reason (possibly a combined effect) wherein for many (possibly most) golfers, a longer length shaft may tend to increase relative impact errors. So a proportionally shorter shaft may be an advantage for a taller player too. Personally, I expect being able to swing relatively 'easier' but still generate the same competitive clubhead speed is the bigger effect in the higher slope of ball speed to height vs. swing speed to height.

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/Mike2.php

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/headweight.php

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/headweight3.php#experience

Edited August 27, 2016 by natureboy

[Lihu]

Moved this post here, as it really doesn't have a lot to do with Mike Austin. . .

 

@BaconNEggs and @NuroPane,  I found this article and plot with associated data.

Interesting that distances as a percentage of height do not exactly correlate. For instance, the shortest two people on the list are 66" in height and have an average drive between 272 and 284, and the tallest is 77" and drives 290. The ratio of heights is around 15% and the ratio of driving distances is around 4%. Even at 76" the ratio of driving distances is only 6%.

From this plot, it looks like there's a sweet spot right about 70" then tapers down at 72" then up again at 73" then down again as the players get taller.

So, my guess is athleticism and a nominal height (like 5'10"-ish) is more or less the sweet spot due to sheer numbers (like average male height). It's rarer to find someone with 80" height who is as athletic and wants to play golf versus some other sport like basketball or football. That might also be the reason for a "weak" spot in the plot for players between 6' and 6'3"?

I think this might be one reason the PGA data is skewed towards 5'10" to 5'11" being pretty much a nominal height for distance?

In general, being taller has an advantage in driving distance, but as far as I can see it's not exactly commensurate to height.

Also, I'm not sure how that translates to strokes gained. . .possibly 0.2 strokes?

To the OP @Hardballs, looks like he's shaved 5 strokes from his handicap since I last was posting here. That's nice, and he did it without getting the 3 strokes per 3 inches inch of height he wanted from his 6'+ playing partners.

[BaconNEggs]

Yes, thanks Lihu.

I would generally agree with what you said. In the other thread I was simply arguing that saying Dustin Johnson is long because of what swing model he may or may not fit into is silly if it ignores the fact that he is an immensely powerful guy with long levers-- those two factors will of course help him hit the ball long, regardless of whether he follows a Mike Austin swing model or a Woody Austin swing model.

I think it's pretty safe to say that, all else being equal (i.e. body ratios, etc.), being taller gives you an advantage in distance, which gives you an advantage overall assuming you are hitting the ball just as well as someone who is shorter. From a physics standpoint this would stand to be obvious. Now, does being an extra X inches from the ball (as a result of being taller) make it more difficult to make good contact? I would guess yes, but it might only be marginally more difficult at best-- both of those are guesses, not statements.

When you get into the "yeah, but if you're 7 feet tall you're probably more lanky and have trouble maintaining center of gravity" arguments it gets into the weeds too much for me. There's too many ways to slice that pie for an online argument, it will never result in any consensus.

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by BaconNEggs

[mvmac]

For generating speed, yes. For buying clubs, no 

 

[Lihu]

18 minutes ago, BaconNEggs said:

Yes, thanks Lihu.

I would generally agree with what you said. In the other thread I was simply arguing that saying Dustin Johnson is long because of what swing model he may or may not fit into is silly if it ignores the fact that he is an immensely powerful guy with long levers-- those two factors will of course help him hit the ball long, regardless of whether he follows a Mike Austin swing model or a Woody Austin swing model.

DJ is one heck of an athlete, but so is Rory. To help with the argument that taller is better for distance, you would need to have all the people who currently play Football, Baseball and Basketball at a college or above level and make them all play golf instead. The odds are in favor of the argument that taller is better for distance when you take from a bigger pool of people.

However, based upon the small sampling of the PGA tour, it seems like once you reach a certain distance the advantage seems to plateau and I'm not sure why?

Might be interesting to have an Iron Byron swinging from 100 to 200mph and see how far the balls can go and if it's linear or follows a similar curve?

 

18 minutes ago, BaconNEggs said:

I think it's pretty safe to say that, all else being equal (i.e. body ratios, etc.), being taller gives you an advantage in distance, which gives you an advantage overall assuming you are hitting the ball just as well as someone who is shorter. From a physics standpoint this would stand to be obvious. Now, does being an extra X inches from the ball (as a result of being taller) make it more difficult to make good contact? I would guess yes, but it might only be marginally more difficult at best-- both of those are guesses, not statements.

Yes, as with most sports bigger is generally better. Taking out the hypothetical situations, there are plenty of really athletic tall people around, but, statistically, there will always be a bigger pool from people of average height.

 

18 minutes ago, BaconNEggs said:

When you get into the "yeah, but if you're 7 feet tall you're probably more lanky and have trouble maintaining center of gravity" arguments it gets into the weeds too much for me. There's too many ways to slice that pie for an online argument, it will never result in any consensus.

Yeah, I agree that this is getting a little bit muddy. There are too many hypothetical situations to draw any kind of conclusion other than "Charles B. should be a much better golfer than he is."