• Announcements

    • iacas

      Introducing TST "Clubs!"   08/28/2017

      No, we're not getting into the equipment business, but we do have "clubs" here on TST now. Groups. Check them out here:
Sign in to follow this  
phan52

Grasses outside of a bunker

Recommended Posts

phan52    145

I was in the back of a bunker with a downhill lie. The bunker had some long grasses surrounding the bunker, but very clearly not IN the bunker. I take my club back and brush the grass outside the bunker before striking the ball.

Legal?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sign up (or log in) today! It's free (and you won't see this ad anymore)!

Sign up (or log in) today! It's free (and you won't see this ad anymore)!

phan52    145
I was in the back of a bunker with a downhill lie. The bunker had some long grasses surrounding the bunker, but very clearly not IN the bunker. I take my club back and brush the grass outside the bunker before striking the ball.

Legal?

Never mind, just found it in the rules, 13-4 Ball in Hazard. It's OK, in the backward movement for the stroke, to touch the grass.

I figured as much. My opponent didn't agree. He's a guy who is pretty knowledgeable of the rules so I got a little confused.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dormie1360    63

I know, in your situation, the grass was outside of the bunker, but I would also make the point that as far as bunkers are concerned, things growing in a bunker are not part of the hazard.  So you really don't need to even consider the note under R13-4.  There is no penalty for touching the grass in a bunker with your club, and even if the grass were in the confines of the bunker, no penalty for grounding your club on the grass.

13/2

Status of Tree in Bunker

Q.Is a tree in a bunker part of the bunker?

A.No. Grass-covered ground within a bunker is not part of the bunker. The same principle applies to a tree. The margin of a bunker does not extend upwards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Rulesman    166

Never mind, just found it in the rules, 13-4 Ball in Hazard. It's OK, in the backward movement for the stroke, to touch the grass.

I figured as much. My opponent didn't agree. He's a guy who is pretty knowledgeable of the rules so I got a little confused.

Ther grass was not in the bunker so 13-4 wouldn't be relevant anyway.

But if it was in the bunker this decision applies.

13-4/4

Touching Grass with Club During Practice Swing in Hazard

Q. A player takes a practice swing in a water hazard without grounding his club, but his club touches some long grass. Is there a penalty?

A. No – see Note to Rule 13-4 . However, the player must ensure that his actions do not breach Rule 13-2 or constitute testing the condition of the hazard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dormie1360    63

Ther grass was not in the bunker so 13-4 wouldn't be relevant anyway.

But if it was in the bunker this decision applies.

13-4/4

Touching Grass with Club During Practice Swing in Hazard

Q.A player takes a practice swing in a water hazard without grounding his club, but his club touches some long grass. Is there a penalty?

A.No – see Note to Rule 13-4. However, the player must ensure that his actions do not breach Rule 13-2 or constitute testing the condition of the hazard.

Hi Rulesman,

D13-4/4 deals with a water hazard.  Does not grass growing in a bunker have the same status as grass growing outside of a bunker?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Rulesman    166

Although 13-4/4 mentions a water hazard, the rule and the decision are about hazards of both types (see the titles).

It is simply giving an example to reinforce that live grass in a hazard is not ground in the hazard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dormie1360    63

I don't think that changes anything I said in post #3. I still don't think R13-4 is the applicable rule when ruling on grass in a bunker. I believe the definition of a bunker covers this.  The grass itself, and the ground from which the grass is growing, is not part of the hazard in a bunker.  This is not true with water hazards.  Although touching the grass in the back swing is treated the same in both bunkers and water hazards, this is for different reasons.

Other things regarding grass in bunkers and water hazards are treated differently.  (grounding the club, loose impediments)

Live grass in a water hazard is still grass in the hazard, which is not the case in a bunker.

I'm just being argumentative today......we'd both give the same ruling. :beer:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Rulesman    166

Live grass in a water hazard may well be grass in the hazard but is is not ground in the hazard and 13-4 is about touching the ground in any hazard.

Phan52 introduced 13-4 into the debate, correctly but arguably redundantly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fourputt    922

I don't think that changes anything I said in post #3. I still don't think R13-4 is the applicable rule when ruling on grass in a bunker. I believe the definition of a bunker covers this.  The grass itself, and the ground from which the grass is growing, is not part of the hazard in a bunker.  This is not true with water hazards.  Although touching the grass in the back swing is treated the same in both bunkers and water hazards, this is for different reasons.

Other things regarding grass in bunkers and water hazards are treated differently.  (grounding the club, loose impediments)

Live grass in a water hazard is still grass in the hazard, which is not the case in a bunker.

I'm just being argumentative today......we'd both give the same ruling.

Have you never seen a poorly tended bunker with grass growing up through the sand?  That ground is still part of the bunker - only the grass is not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Dormie1360    63
U guys keep bringing up the "ground". I'm not sure how that relates to the OP's question. I agree with ur point concerning weeds or grass that's not suppose to b there. :surrender:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Fourputt    922

U guys keep bringing up the "ground". I'm not sure how that relates to the OP's question. I agree with ur point concerning weeds or grass that's not suppose to b there.

I was only replying to you, not to the OP.  The OP answered his own question before we chimed in.  You said no penalty for grounding on grass growing in the bunker , and I dispute that.  If the grass is growing in the bunker there is definitely a penalty for grounding your club in it.

There is no penalty for grounding in an area of turf within the boundary of a bunker because such turf is not part of the bunker.  The terminology is important in this ruling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Dormie1360    63

The word pedantic comes to mine when I think you know that we both understand the rule.

BTW, You might want to email the USGA and tell them they're using bad terminology.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Dormie1360    63

Also, I will agree that 13-4 is applicable regardless if the "grass" is part of the hazard or not.  The above video shows what my comments were about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

flopster    48

The word pedantic comes to mine when I think you know that we both understand the rule.

BTW, You might want to email the USGA and tell them they're using bad terminology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C0HSjcFpDw


So if I'm understanding this correctly a player could in fact ground his club in the bunker if the ball is in a position showed in the video?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rulesman    166

So if I'm understanding this correctly a player could in fact ground his club in the bunker if the ball is in a position showed in the video?

You understand it correctly. The ball is not in the bunker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2017 TST Partners

    Talamore Golf Resort
    PING Golf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Mission Belt
    Snell Golf
    Frogger Golf
    PitchFix USA
  • Posts

    • I'm a member at the club where Xander grew up playing, obviously everyone is super excited to see him get this win and launch himself into "elite" status on tour. He won 1.58M and an extra 2M for finishing 3rd in Fed Ex Cup. This time last year he was playing in the Web.com finals.
    • Gotcha. Thanks. That's a possibility too. I don't feel like I am hanging back but as you know feel ain't real.  Most likely my problem is a combination of things (maybe ball too far back combined with hanging back?). This started happening out of the blue and has been going on for about 2 weeks (5-6 rounds), and even with range work i have not been able to shake it off... yet! Thank you all for the suggestions. I'll try to double check them one at a time until I can tell for sure whether my not implementing them is the culprit. It shouldn't be too hard to recover from this, but it sure is annoying...
    • https://www.gamegolf.com/player/JonMa1/round/1859679?hole_id=34840967 Short and mid iron approaches were pretty good. Pitches, chips were fine. I just had a rough time controlling the driver until the 13th today. Also had issues topping some 5i and 4i shots though I did hit a couple nice 4i shots. Putting was pretty poor today. I'm getting acceptable distance from my driver since having the shaft shortened and contact seems better. Unfortunately, controlling the club face continues to be a challenge. Excessive penalties have been the theme for 2017. Lowering my handicap from longer courses will be next to impossible if I don't improve this part of my game.
    • I'm surprised he didn't at least ponder if there was a rule on that. I didn't know but had it happened to me I definitely would've asked my partner or someone there, 'hey is there a rule about this?' Certainly shows how it pays to know the rules. 
    • At 63 I have all the same challenges others have noted. In addition, poorer eyesight has been a new challenge. I never had to play with glasses from age 10 to late 40's and then quit golf. Now at 63 and back playing golf, just seeing the ball clearly at address has been a significant issue for me. And of course corrective lenses that work at address aren't right for reading or distance vision. Anyone else? I'm afraid between poorer vision and all the senior physical challenges, my days of consistently finding the sweet spot on my clubs are probably over. Game improvement clubs here I (reluctantly) come...
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Blog Entries

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Dresilved
      Dresilved
      (52 years old)
    2. kpetrina
      kpetrina
      (25 years old)
    3. Luana
      Luana
      (39 years old)
  • Get Great Gear with Amazon