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Lucas Glover Moves Ball Marking Putt

le rapace

By le rapace,
in Rules of Golf

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chasgunn Newbie

chasgunn

Sorry to be pedantic here but I don't believe the actual circumstances are addressed here - I agree the Rule is absolutely clear, yes and agree he moved the ball in the act of marking the ball.

BUT - did he subsequently follow the rule? After accidentally moving the ball, in accordance with the rule, he should have replaced the ball in the correct position (and re-marked it) or moved the marker back to the correct position. Surely you cannot argue the marker was in the correct position if having lowered his hand vertically he had to nudge the ball slightly to get the marker in the ground. I know we are talking millimetres but the ball did clearly move.

It would be very interesting to know if he said to his partners "I nudged the ball but I'm sure I marked it correctly" - or if the USPGA had this conversation with him in the scorer's hut. Really would be useful to have this clarification as this is going round on a number of golf forums.

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Fourputt Incredible Member

Fourputt

Sorry to be pedantic here but I don't believe the actual circumstances are addressed here - I agree the Rule is absolutely clear, yes and agree he moved the ball in the act of marking the ball.

BUT - did he subsequently follow the rule? After accidentally moving the ball, in accordance with the rule, he should have replaced the ball in the correct position (and re-marked it) or moved the marker back to the correct position. Surely you cannot argue the marker was in the correct position if having lowered his hand vertically he had to nudge the ball slightly to get the marker in the ground. I know we are talking millimetres but the ball did clearly move.

It would be very interesting to know if he said to his partners "I nudged the ball but I'm sure I marked it correctly" - or if the USPGA had this conversation with him in the scorer's hut. Really would be useful to have this clarification as this is going round on a number of golf forums.

I looked at that video over and over, and he placed the marker in the same spot he had originally intended.  The movement of the ball had nothing to do with that.  The placement was a continuous motion.  He did not pause and move the marker farther forward to the spot where the ball was.  If there was any breach it was so small that it was indistinguishable.  Besides, the only requirement under the rule is that the ball is replaced where it originally lay.  A marker can be placed anywhere near the ball as long as it results in the ball being properly replaced.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Big C Great Member

Big C

I looked at that video over and over, and he placed the marker in the same spot he had originally intended.  The movement of the ball had nothing to do with that.  The placement was a continuous motion.  He did not pause and move the marker farther forward to the spot where the ball was.  If there was any breach it was so small that it was indistinguishable.  Besides, the only requirement under the rule is that the ball is replaced where it originally lay.  A marker can be placed anywhere near the ball as long as it results in the ball being properly replaced.


I agree with this.

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Rulesman Great Member

Rulesman

I think the situation re the ball or marker moving is misunderstood.

The object of the exercise is to ensure that the original position of the ball is marked correctly and to ensure that is replaced in the correct position.

The problem the rule is addressing is when this may not be achieved.

The most likely case is after the ball has been replaced, the player accidentally knocks the ball when removing the marker . In that situation the ball is no longer in its correct position and has to be replaced.

The other, less likely, case is when the marker has been placed, the player accidentally moves the marker when lifting the ball . In that situation the original position of the ball is no longer correctly marked and the marker has to be replaced.

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jgreen85 Dedicated Member

jgreen85

another question: when replacing my ball, must I ensure it no longer moves after setting it down before picking up the mark? sometimes there's an indentation or something that prevents the ball from staying precisely where I set it down and it'll roll over slightly.

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chasgunn Newbie

chasgunn

I looked at that video over and over, and he placed the marker in the same spot he had originally intended.  The movement of the ball had nothing to do with that.  The placement was a continuous motion.  He did not pause and move the marker farther forward to the spot where the ball was.  If there was any breach it was so small that it was indistinguishable.  Besides, the only requirement under the rule is that the ball is replaced where it originally lay.  A marker can be placed anywhere near the ball as long as it results in the ball being properly replaced.


I fully agree with this, in the circumstances the player recognised that he moved the ball and then made a conscious effort, however negligible, to replace it marginally closer to the marker than the position it had moved to - as you say to fulfill the requirement that the ball was replaced in the correct place. I think if he had been conscious he had moved the ball he would have called a rules official and would have replaced the ball under supervision. I know it is a tiny amount and I know it made no difference to him holing the next putt but by the rules as I read them, unless he consciously made an effort to replace the ball back in it's original position before it had moved, he inadvertently broke the rule - as you say almost indistinguishably. I am really sorry to go on about this but my guess is Lucas Glover (who had just missed two very short putts on 17 and 18) was in a head scramble and didn't even realise he had done this -  I would love to know if the USPGA have looked at the incident, as it is now being discussed on a number of golf forums, whether they have spoken to Glover and in fact ruled as you suggest that as it was such a tiny movement there was no conscious breaking of the rule.

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Rulesman Great Member

Rulesman

I fully agree with this, in the circumstances the player recognised that he moved the ball and then made a conscious effort, however negligible, to replace it marginally closer to the marker than the position it had moved to - as you say to fulfill the requirement that the ball was replaced in the correct place. I think if he had been conscious he had moved the ball he would have called a rules official and would have replaced the ball under supervision. I know it is a tiny amount and I know it made no difference to him holing the next putt but by the rules as I read them, unless he consciously made an effort to replace the ball back in it's original position before it had moved, he inadvertently broke the rule - as you say almost indistinguishably. I am really sorry to go on about this but my guess is Lucas Glover (who had just missed two very short putts on 17 and 18) was in a head scramble and didn't even realise he had done this -  I would love to know if the USPGA have looked at the incident, as it is now being discussed on a number of golf forums, whether they have spoken to Glover and in fact ruled as you suggest that as it was such a tiny movement there was no conscious breaking of the rule.

There is no penalty for doing what he did. The whole point of the rule is that it recognises that many people (particularly elderly players) have a 'shake' affliction or may lose their balance etc. The RBs do not want to inflict penalties just for the sake of doing it. A referee's primary job is to prevent the issuing of penalties.

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Rulesman Great Member

Rulesman

another question: when replacing my ball, must I ensure it no longer moves after setting it down before picking up the mark? sometimes there's an indentation or something that prevents the ball from staying precisely where I set it down and it'll roll over slightly.

Just give it a couple of seconds, no more, if it hasn't moved you are good to go. If it does, put it back. If it moves after a couple of seconds, play it as it lies unless you did something to cause it to move.

There is need to wait the couple of seconds before you remove the marker. The time is only required to ensure it has remained at rest.

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ColinL Dedicated Member

ColinL

I looked at that video over and over, and he placed the marker in the same spot he had originally intended.  The movement of the ball had nothing to do with that.  The placement was a continuous motion.  He did not pause and move the marker farther forward to the spot where the ball was.  If there was any breach it was so small that it was indistinguishable.  Besides, the only requirement under the rule is that the ball is replaced where it originally lay.  A marker can be placed anywhere near the ball as long as it results in the ball being properly replaced.

There is, as you say  absolutely nothing untoward about the nudging of the ball in the process of placing the marker.  The ball is a sphere and if you aim to place the marker right up to the ball it is very easy to knock the ball with a finger or knuckle as you do it .  I see it often and do it quite often.   Quite a bit of what is being said in the discussion is over-complicating what is a simple and commonplace matter that is clearly covered in the Rule.

I would take issue, however, with the idea that the only requirement under the Rules is to replace the ball in the right position and that the marker "can be placed anywhere near the ball as long as it results in the ball being properly replaced."  The marker has to be placed accurately to establish the position of the ball.  "Anywhere near" is not adequately accurate.

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Fourputt Incredible Member

Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I looked at that video over and over, and he placed the marker in the same spot he had originally intended.  The movement of the ball had nothing to do with that.  The placement was a continuous motion.  He did not pause and move the marker farther forward to the spot where the ball was.  If there was any breach it was so small that it was indistinguishable.  Besides, the only requirement under the rule is that the ball is replaced where it originally lay.  A marker can be placed anywhere near the ball as long as it results in the ball being properly replaced.

There is, as you say  absolutely nothing untoward about the nudging of the ball in the process of placing the marker.  The ball is a sphere and if you aim to place the marker right up to the ball it is very easy to knock the ball with a finger or knuckle as you do it .  I see it often and do it quite often.   Quite a bit of what is being said in the discussion is over-complicating what is a simple and commonplace matter that is clearly covered in the Rule.

I would take issue, however, with the idea that the only requirement under the Rules is to replace the ball in the right position and that the marker "can be placed anywhere near the ball as long as it results in the ball being properly replaced."  The marker has to be placed accurately to establish the position of the ball.  "Anywhere near" is not adequately accurate.

If it allows the player to accurately replace the ball, then the placement of the marker is considered sufficient under the rules.  If your contention was correct, then the rules would not allow the player to move the marker one or two putter heads to the side when there was interference with another player's putt.  This is a process which results in an approximation at best.

The marker can also be placed to back, front or either side of the ball.  Most players slide it underneath to touch or nearly touch the ball.  I do not.  I place it even with the back edge of the ball when looking straight down from above.  There are lots of ways to correctly mark a ball, and all of them only require that the ball be replaced as closely as humanly possible on the spot from which it was lifted.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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ColinL Dedicated Member

ColinL

If it allows the player to accurately replace the ball, then the placement of the marker is considered sufficient under the rules.  If your contention was correct, then the rules would not allow the player to move the marker one or two putter heads to the side when there was interference with another player's putt.  This is a process which results in an approximation at best.

The marker can also be placed to back, front or either side of the ball.  Most players slide it underneath to touch or nearly touch the ball.  I do not.  I place it even with the back edge of the ball when looking straight down from above.  There are lots of ways to correctly mark a ball, and all of them only require that the ball be replaced as closely as humanly possible on the spot from which it was lifted.

Marking way by measuring with a putter head can, and should be done accurately.  Placing the marker to the side or to the front of the ball also needs to be done accurately.

If the ball is to  be replaced accurately, the marker must have been placed accurately in the first instance. It needs to be that way round;  mark accurately and you will replace accurately. Mark without regard to accuracy and you could end up replacing inaccurately.    It's a matter of your wording, but I was taking issue with  your saying that the marker can be placed anywhere near the ball as long as it results in the ball being properly replaced.   "Anywhere near the ball"  is just too vague and could mislead people into thinking they can be casual about marking when the rules do in fact demand accuracy.  See D20-1/20

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-1-20

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Fourputt Incredible Member

Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If it allows the player to accurately replace the ball, then the placement of the marker is considered sufficient under the rules.  If your contention was correct, then the rules would not allow the player to move the marker one or two putter heads to the side when there was interference with another player's putt.  This is a process which results in an approximation at best.

The marker can also be placed to back, front or either side of the ball.  Most players slide it underneath to touch or nearly touch the ball.  I do not.  I place it even with the back edge of the ball when looking straight down from above.  There are lots of ways to correctly mark a ball, and all of them only require that the ball be replaced as closely as humanly possible on the spot from which it was lifted.

Marking way by measuring with a putter head can, and should be done accurately.  Placing the marker to the side or to the front of the ball also needs to be done accurately.

If the ball is to  be replaced accurately, the marker must have been placed accurately in the first instance. It needs to be that way round;  mark accurately and you will replace accurately. Mark without regard to accuracy and you could end up replacing inaccurately.    It's a matter of your wording, but I was taking issue with  your saying that  the marker can be placed anywhere near the ball as long as it results in the ball being properly replaced.   "Anywhere near the ball"  is just too vague and could mislead people into thinking they can be casual about marking when the rules do in fact demand accuracy.  See D20-1/20

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-1-20

I'm not going to argue semantics with you.  I specified that the mark must be located in such a manner that the ball is properly replaced.  I figure that covered any other inadequacies in my statement.  I was explaining the ultimate requirement of the rule, not instructing how to accomplish that.  I figure I'm talking with rational people here and that they can figure out that the best way to put the ball back on its spot is to place the marker in close proximity to the ball.

Most people learn to mark their ball by word of mouth very shortly after starting their first round on a golf course.  Yet even when placing the mark close to the ball as the rules specify, many don't get that the point or the exercise is to replace the ball precisely.  I see players, even in competitions, who are rather loose with the replacement of the ball, even though they mark the ball correctly before lifting.  What is the point of carefully marking the ball only to just drop it and roll it with the putter somewhere close to the spot before lifting the marker?  In a tournament I will caution a fellow competitor about such an act.  In casual golf  i don't worry about it.  The trouble is that such bad habits carry over into competition until such time as the player runs into someone who knows the rules.  Then they get socked for it.  I'd rather that they know the purpose behind the action before that happens.

So yes you are right that they should place the marker in close proximity to the ball.  But that does not give them the leeway to be more casual about replacing the ball than they were about placing the marker.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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RickK Dedicated Member

RickK

I looked at that video over and over, and he placed the marker in the same spot he had originally intended.  The movement of the ball had nothing to do with that.  The placement was a continuous motion.  He did not pause and move the marker farther forward to the spot where the ball was.  If there was any breach it was so small that it was indistinguishable.  Besides, the only requirement under the rule is that the ball is replaced where it originally lay.  A marker can be placed anywhere near the ball as long as it results in the ball being properly replaced.

I too agree.  And, if you slow that video down so that you can place a pointer where the ball is lying on the green, it is very easy to see that the marker he put down was not moved forward.  It was in the correct spot.  He did not mark the ball where it ended up after rolling.  No penalty.

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chasgunn Newbie

chasgunn

Thanks for all the postings and I am now clear that the key point is that as long as it is deemed the marker was placed in the correct position there is no penalty as the player will then replace the ball in the correct position. Thank you.

It had been bugging me that I had heard of a similar situation some years ago resulting in a disqualification. The incident in question was Padraig Harrington being disqualified in Abu Dhabi in 2011 - BUT the difference was he brushed the ball as he lifted his marker and therefore should have replaced the ball before putting out.  As earlier contributors pointed out the two situations are therefore subtly different.

See the following link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/9369046.stm

An extract is:

Abu Dhabi HSBC Championship January 2011 –

Harrington's hand brushed the back of his ball on hole seven as he replaced it in front of his marker.

The ball rocked forward and television slow-motion replays showed that it did not return to its original position.  Tour senior referee Andy McFee, said

"………   It's a minute movement, but it's a movement and he never replaced it, so he should have included a two-stroke penalty.

"The fact that he is unaware he moved the ball unfortunately does not help him. Because he signed for a score lower than actually taken the penalty is disqualification."

Hopefully if I now come across either instance I understand how the rules apply - thanks again.

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