Ball markers

[saevel25]

If asked to lift a ball that is interfering with another player's line of putt, a player is required to lift his ball to eliminate the interference.  This may mean more than just marking and lifting the ball, as that may not be sufficient to remove all interference.  If the marker lies on or near the line of putt, then it too may interfere with the roll of the ball, and that continuing interference must also be dealt with.

Still it is stated in the rules that a player should move the ball-marker not shall move it. He is required to mark his ball he is not required to move the ball-marker.

Still it is a penalty for the opponent to move another golfer's ball marker.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If asked to lift a ball that is interfering with another player's line of putt, a player is required to lift his ball to eliminate the interference.  This may mean more than just marking and lifting the ball, as that may not be sufficient to remove all interference.  If the marker lies on or near the line of putt, then it too may interfere with the roll of the ball, and that continuing interference must also be dealt with.

Still it is stated in the rules that a player should move the ball-marker not shall move it. He is required to mark his ball he is not required to move the ball-marker.

Still it is a penalty for the opponent to move another golfer's ball marker.

I think that the problem with this is that the rules writers never contemplated any player being enough of a jerk that he would refuse to do so.  The rules are written for gentlemen.  Good sportsmanship is assumed.

[saevel25]

I think that the problem with this is that the rules writers never contemplated any player being enough of a jerk that he would refuse to do so.  The rules are written for gentlemen.  Good sportsmanship is assumed.

True, I am not saying don't move the ball-marker. Under the rules there really is no provision to were an opponent can take measures to ensure that a ball-marker is moved even if his opponent refuses to.

I thought there was a rule about moving ball-markers.  I think I was mixing it up with not marking the ball when an opponent asks you to.

[mdl]

I either use a quarter or my TheSandTrap ball marker

I always use my TST marker.  I like the two sides method to remind yourself if you've had to move your mark for another player.  I like the TST logo, so I use that as my default and switch to the other side if I move the marker.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I think that the problem with this is that the rules writers never contemplated any player being enough of a jerk that he would refuse to do so.  The rules are written for gentlemen.  Good sportsmanship is assumed.

True, I am not saying don't move the ball-marker. Under the rules there really is no provision to were an opponent can take measures to ensure that a ball-marker is moved even if his opponent refuses to.

I thought there was a rule about moving ball-markers.  I think I was mixing it up with not marking the ball when an opponent asks you to.

I just feel that moving the marker should be a logical extension of the marking.  I believe that the committee would be justified in threatening a player with disqualification for such a refusal as a serious breach of etiquette if nothing else.  As a player, I'd be livid if any fellow competitor pulled such a stunt.  In a casual round, I'd probably just consider it as an immovable obstruction and take relief for line of putt.  I've never run across this, and I doubt that I ever will.

[saevel25]

I just feel that moving the marker should be a logical extension of the marking.  I believe that the committee would be justified in threatening a player with disqualification for such a refusal as a serious breach of etiquette if nothing else.  As a player, I'd be livid if any fellow competitor pulled such a stunt.  In a casual round, I'd probably just consider it as an immovable obstruction and take relief for line of putt.  I've never run across this, and I doubt that I ever will.

I agree. I am just surprised that there hasn't been a question posted and a decision written on this.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I just feel that moving the marker should be a logical extension of the marking.  I believe that the committee would be justified in threatening a player with disqualification for such a refusal as a serious breach of etiquette if nothing else.  As a player, I'd be livid if any fellow competitor pulled such a stunt.  In a casual round, I'd probably just consider it as an immovable obstruction and take relief for line of putt.  I've never run across this, and I doubt that I ever will.

I agree. I am just surprised that there hasn't been a question posted and a decision written on this.

I doubt that it's ever happened in a tournament of any significance.  That seems to be the most common justification for writing a decision.  They wont touch a hypothetical scenario.

[ColinL]

A few points in response to what has been said about my post about the ball marker being a movable obstruction.

A ball marker when in use to mark the position of a ball is not equipment - see the Definition:

An obstruction is anything artificial  - with certain exceptions but a ball marker is not one of them.  A ball marker  is by definition an obstruction.

A ball marker can be moved without unreasonable effort, without unduly delaying play and without causing damage.  It is by definition an immovable obstruction.

You cannot   by individual choice deem a movable obstruction to be immovable.  Only a local rule can do that. If you took relief from a movable obstruction as if it were an immovable one you would incur a 2 stroke penalty for moving your ball and not replacing it (Rule 18-2).

I was sloppy in referring to "another player" instead of a "fellow competitor" who refuses to lift his marker.  You could  in those circumstances move his marker as it is a movable obstruction.

In match play, moving the  marker that is interfering with play when your opponent has refused to do so is irrelevant.  He has already breached Rule 20-1 (see the Note) and lost the hole.

[Rulzguy]

ColinL you make good points. But the definition of equipment :

"Equipment “ Equipment ” is anything used, worn or carried by the player or anything carried for the player by his partner or either of their caddies , except any ball he has played at the hole being played and any small object , such as a coin or a tee, when used to mark the position of a ball or the extent of an area in which a ball is to be dropped. Equipment includes a golf cart, whether or not motorized".

The section of the definition where it can be a little confusing is underlined. The underlined section refers to a mark or tee when placed on the ground to identify where the ball is located prior to lifting for a drop purpose. And the other tee or mark used when measuring the relief distance such as one club length or two club lengths. That is the time is is not equipment.

You are also correct referencing the 'movable or immovable obstruction' rule and penalty.

[ColinL]

Sorry, but there is nothing at all confusing about the exceptions to what is  equipment which include "any small object, such as a coin or tee ... when it is used to mark the position of a ball ... "     The marker is marking the position of the ball from start to finish - from placing it before lifting the ball to lifting it after replacing the ball.  That's what the words say.  They do not say that the exception applies only prior to lifting - which seems to be what you are suggesting.

[Dormie1360]

Why doesn't someone just email the USGA and put this one to bed.......it certainly comes up enough.  (Has to be from US)

What is the ruling and does a player have any regress when his fellow competitor or opponent refuses to move their ball marker which is interfering with the player's line of putt?

http://www.usga.org/rules/contact/Contact-Us/

( I would, but I've been bugging them lately about other stuff).

Just some comments.

Equipment can also be obstructions.

Small objects, (tees, coins) can also be obstructions.

The general penalty for R22 is breached when a player either lifts his ball while another ball is in motion or failure to replace his ball in the correct spot.  Neither of these apply to our discussion.

If a marker is to be treated as a ball (analogous to R22-2) and a player refuses to move it,  in stroke play the penalty is DQ under R3-4 Refusal to Comply with a Rule, and in Match Play the penalty is Loss of Hole under R1-4 Points not covered by the Rules.  See Decision 2/3.

[Rulzguy]

ColinL. After conferring with two other officials who agreed with me I decided to contact the USGA. I thought your point was valid about the 'movable obstruction' and if mark in way as movable ob. player has right under Rule 24 to move it.  The USGA supported the officials about the ball marker being equipment until it is placed behind the ball. They stated although the marker could be looked at as a movable obstruction, it is not one in the sense the player does not have the right to move another player's marker. Rule 20-1 discusses this and Decision 20-1/2, 20-1/3, 20-1/4 address it. Even though the player could argue it is a movable obstruction, (which I did argue on your behalf with the USGA) Rule 20 overrides Rule 24 in this case.

So, to summarize: I was mistaken about the marker on the green as equipment. The penalties we all discussed basically stand true, Match Play failing to move is loss of hole, stroke play 2 stroke penalty. AND if the player fails to move it all together Rule 3-4 comes into play and DQ is the result.

I have always said the 34 Rules of Golf are not really that difficult, you either can or you can't. It's the over 1200 decisions that officials must learn that is really where the hard part comes in. Part of my enjoyment is knowing I learned something and other players researched rules, which is great. Another part is I get to call my friends the officials, one is high up there also, and explain this to them.

Thanks for the conversation and help. Hope to have more of these  conversations with you and the others.

Regards,

Gary

[Dormie1360]

Gary, thanks for making the call......you saved another 2 pages on the server.

[ColinL]

Thanks Gary - very helpful.  Just one further thought about  the actual situation on the putting green:  if a fellow competitor refuses to move his ball marker and a player moves it anyway, he may be exercising a right that he doesn't have but he incurs no penalty for doing so.  The situation on the putting green at the time is at least resolved to the extent of allowing them to get on with the game.  The contribution to friendly conversation for the rest of the round might be a bit negative, though. Personally I would just putt with the marker in place and probably miss it, being rubbish at judging my line of putt anyway.

[Rulzguy]

My friends at the USGA agreed with me when I said, "who are these people playing with who won't even move a ball mark on the green in line of a putt?" Interestingly, they had to call me back after they discussed this unusual situation. It wasn't just an 'oh here is the answer' type situation, as we have seen.

I'm off to play this morning, about 35 degrees and damp.  Probably not that odd of a day to play for you guys. Should get up to about 45 so I'll be in shorts.

Regards,

Gary

[dkolo]

What if the marker were just interfering with your stance? One guy had a poker chip right where my foot was going to be and just told me to stand on it after I asked him to move it.

[Asheville]

What if the marker were just interfering with your stance? One guy had a poker chip right where my foot was going to be and just told me to stand on it after I asked him to move it.

If your FC refuses to move it, you may pick it up and hand it to him. You will incur no penalty.

[Rulzguy]

I would just stand on it. all the same rules apply whether in your line or interfering  with stance. If it is a real bother and he won't move his 'man hole cover' maker, exchange it and put a small coin there, and then find a new group to play with.

Regards,

Gary