6th Key? Linking the Hands/Arms to the Pivot in Downswing

[iacas]

Here's the deal…

• Keegan's head doesn't move very much. See the image in the spoiler below. Plus, this is with a 3W teed up. The word "steady" means "not moving much" and Keegan is not in "violation" of this one. Virtually all pros apply all of the 5 Simple Keys®. There are very few exceptions.
• "Sequencing" or "syncing" the arms to the body is:
  • Key #2 done properly. It's weight forward, but properly - if your arms are not synchronized your hips won't be forward enough or they'll be too open. That can affect…
  • Key #3. The shaft will line up too late if the arms come down too quickly, often, and the shaft will line up too early if they come down too late.
  • Key #4 can thus be affected. Earlier someone mentioned the shaft being "too steep" which is exactly what Key #4 is about.
  • Key #5 is also affected.
• In other words, the Keys have this covered. It may not seem like it from a "view from an airplane" type of situation, but I know we've talked about "getting the arms down faster" or other such things to people here in My Swing threads, etc. This may not be something a true student can see, but… again… it's something that students don't often need to worry about unless it's their priority piece.

There are a lot of things we discuss and cover as instructors that don't appear to be in the broad paint brush strokes of the Keys or the names of the Keys. For example, Key #1 says "steady head" but it's often more about the sequencing of the turning rates and some other pieces on the backswing, for example, to get a full torso turn. Key #3 and #4 (and #2, and #5) cover this "arms synced to the pivot in the downswing."

[cedrictheo]

I'd like to add that the system is the "5 Simple Keys" IMO "Linking the Hands/Arms to the pivot in the Downsing" does not have the same simplicity for the student as the other keys which contain 2 words (steady head, weight forward, etc). You are definitely correct that the sequencing in the downswing is important, but as Iacas has made clear the 5sk instructors know this and have incorporated it into the keys (2,3,4).

[No Mulligans]

Quote:

6th Key? Linking the Hands/Arms to the Pivot in Downswing

I also am not sure what that is.  Could you explain or illustrate?

[dkolo]

6th Key? Linking the Hands/Arms to the Pivot in Downswing

I also am not sure what that is.  Could you explain or illustrate?

Are you familiar with the term "connected golf swing?" It's another way of saying that. It's the biggest thing I'm working on now, and I think of it as having my arms move because my chest moves, as opposed to the two being independent of one another. Tucking my right elbow into my side is another part of it.

[westcyderydin]

Here's the deal…

Keegan's head doesn't move very much.

It moves back about the width of his head and it doesn't quite get back to where he started.  If you put your thumb on the screen at the front side of his face at his setup .  He does turn very well and all, but he just doesn't have a centered pivot.  I would say that he just falls toward the low end of the Key #1 scale.  I think you might be able to call him an outlier.

[iacas]

It moves back about the width of his head and it doesn't quite get back to where he started.  If you put your thumb on the screen at the front side of his face at his setup. He does turn very well and all, but he just doesn't have a centered pivot.  I would say that he just falls toward the low end of the Key #1 scale. I think you might be able to call him an outlier.

I included a picture above. Since you seem to have missed it…

Keegan's head is relatively steady.

Kinda wish you'd addressed the many other points I raised.

[Phil McGleno]

It came together for me via two PMs.-I understand why the OP is asking about this now.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/866245003/impact-handle I will not share what I think about Monte here but I think that is why he is asking. Get arms down faster but not too fast. Rest of body still has to get in the right position.

[westcyderydin]

It came together for me via two PMs.-I understand why the OP is asking about this now.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/866245003/impact-handle

I will not share what I think about Monte here but I think that is why he is asking. Get arms down faster but not too fast. Rest of body still has to get in the right position.

I only sent you one PM.  You are an instructor and pretty involved in the site and I didn't want to talk about another teacher or teaching website on the board so I told you what I was talking about.

Haha and it sounds you know the guy I was talking about.  Never knew anything about the training aid in the video until I just looked it up...interesting.

[westcyderydin]

"Sequencing" or "syncing" the arms to the body is:

Key #2 done properly. It's weight forward, but properly - if your arms are not synchronized your hips won't be forward enough or they'll be too open. That can affect…

Key #3. The shaft will line up too late if the arms come down too quickly, often, and the shaft will line up too early if they come down too late.

Key #4 can thus be affected. Earlier someone mentioned the shaft being "too steep" which is exactly what Key #4 is about.

Key #5 is also affected.

In other words, the Keys have this covered. It may not seem like it from a "view from an airplane" type of situation, but I know we've talked about "getting the arms down faster" or other such things to people here in My Swing threads, etc. This may not be something a true student can see, but… again… it's something that students don't often need to worry about unless it's their priority piece.

There are a lot of things we discuss and cover as instructors that don't appear to be in the broad paint brush strokes of the Keys or the names of the Keys. For example, Key #1 says "steady head" but it's often more about the sequencing of the turning rates and some other pieces on the backswing, for example, to get a full torso turn. Key #3 and #4 (and #2, and #5) cover this "arms synced to the pivot in the downswing."

I can see how this can be covered in the 5SK.  Maybe linking up it isn't a key, but it is important and I think it is just worth its own conversation.

I am not trying to argue, just trying to back up my thoughts.  I'm a 5SK follower and have learned a lot from TST since 2010 or so (along with LSW,).  I'm not an outsider trying to come in and crap on anything, I am just interested in learning...Like you say in your sig, If you like golf its all good.

Is there any positive conversation we can have about this at this point?

I'll ask you a question.  Do you get many students who tend to get their weight forward, maybe much or too quickly, from the top but then have trouble getting their arms to catch up?  How common is it?  What are some ways that they might be able to do to sync things up better?

[Phil McGleno]

I only sent you one PM.  You are an instructor and pretty involved in the site and I didn't want to talk about another teacher or teaching website on the board so I told you what I was talking about.  Haha and it sounds you know the guy I was talking about.  Never knew anything about the training aid in the video until I just looked it up...interesting.

I did not say both of the PMs were from you-Just that I got two that clarified this for me. I do not think people have a problem with talking about other instructors here. Or their ideas. They talk about them all the time.

[iacas]

I can see how this can be covered in the 5SK.  Maybe linking up it isn't a key, but it is important and I think it is just worth its own conversation.

It probably is worth its own discussion, but I'm just trying to answer the question. You posed it as a possible Key, and I don't agree that it is one, and stated why.

I am not trying to argue, just trying to back up my thoughts.  I'm a 5SK follower and have learned a lot from TST since 2010 or so (along with LSW,).  I'm not an outsider trying to come in and crap on anything, I am just interested in learning...Like you say in your sig, If you like golf its all good.

There's no need at all to be defensive. You're fine - we like discussions about this kind of stuff.

Is there any positive conversation we can have about this at this point?

Probably in a new thread. Let's think of a good title for it, too, since "syncing" is vague. Perhaps "Getting Arms Down Properly in Downswing" or something like that.

Though "properly" will have a variety of feelings. You could have someone who is closed (relatively) and pulls the arms down fast versus someone whose arms come down relatively slowly like maybe a Jim Furyk or a lot of LPGA Tour players who are spun fairly well open by the time they reach impact with the clubhead.

I'll ask you a question.  Do you get many students who tend to get their weight forward, maybe much or too quickly, from the top but then have trouble getting their arms to catch up?  How common is it?  What are some ways that they might be able to do to sync things up better?

a) We don't get too many students who get their weight forward properly, almost none who do it too much (unless it started too far forward, or they're moving their heads forward too)

b) Yes, plenty of students fail to get their arms down properly. Many are a result of over-swinging on the backswing (the arms have too far to travel), some are from the idea that the arms are supposed to be more "passive" or something…

c) Many of them simply need to be told to swing their arms faster. Some need to be told to direct their hands down and forward (a sort of aiming point concept from TGM). It varies by student. When we're working like this it's often called Key #3 work.

I do not think people have a problem with talking about other instructors here. Or their ideas. They talk about them all the time.

Yeah, that stuff doesn't matter to me. Heck, I'd rather talk about new and different stuff than "my stuff" all the time. We talk about other people's stuff all the time with @david_wedzik , @mvmac , etc.