Baltimore protests

[mmoan2]

When it glorifies violence against cops and fosters misogynist attitudes towards women, hip hop music most certainly does belong in the list of contributing factors in creating the dysfunction which IS our inner cities.

It belongs, you're correct, but I hear @RJH999 Wu Tang in my smartphone playlist right now and feel pretty grounded in my respect for women and the law. No doubt that adding it to the mix with a confused youth will stoke the fire, however, under the right circumstances.

[dsc123]

Way to not even try to understand the point.  The point is not to say that rioting is right or that people have no choice but to riot like it's some kind of physical force.  It's that it's unsurprising and that it's disingenuous and fraudulent to sit in a position of power in a system that rains constant violence on a community through the very tool with which it is supposed to serve and protect that community and then react to violent reaction with righteous calls for calm and order and restraint.  The fraud is that these calls for non-violence and restraint are made with the fraudulent implication that you and the state system in which you hold power have been dealing with the community in question with calm and order and restraint all along so this violent reaction is just totally incomprehensible.

Well, he's a national correspondent for the Atlantic who's been investigating and thinking about writing about these issues for years, grew up in the neighborhood where the rioting started, and his mother grew up in the same housing project where the guy who died lived.  But of course, you're not actually arguing about his credibility.  You're just hand waving, talking dismissively about everyone's opinions, then pretending that since every just has an opinion the true story must be whatever your opinion is.

I think it gives him a much greater and more personal understanding of what's going on.  That doesn't logically imply he's "right", but it does mean his opinion is wildly better informed than ours.

(intended as the grill room version of a thumbs up)

[Jeremie Boop]

Way to not even try to understand the point.  The point is not to say that rioting is right or that people have no choice but to riot like it's some kind of physical force.  It's that it's unsurprising and that it's disingenuous and fraudulent to sit in a position of power in a system that rains constant violence on a community through the very tool with which it is supposed to serve and protect that community and then react to violent reaction with righteous calls for calm and order and restraint.  The fraud is that these calls for non-violence and restraint are made with the fraudulent implication that you and the state system in which you hold power have been dealing with the community in question with calm and order and restraint all along so this violent reaction is just totally incomprehensible.

Seriously? "Rains constant violence"...

With a standpoint like that I guess there really isn't anything I can/care to say.

[mmoan2]

(intended as the grill room version of a thumbs up)

In the words of Smokey Robinson, I second that emotion. Great insight and empathy for the story, whether or not I totally agree.

[mdl]

Seriously? "Rains constant violence"...

With a standpoint like that I guess there really isn't anything I can/care to say.

If you close your eyes and plug your ears, that means nothing is happening, right?

[Jeremie Boop]

If you close your eyes and plug your ears, that means nothing is happening, right?

I just refuse to even try to have a discussion with anyone who would say something like that. I have no problem admitting that there are cases of police brutality, but what you said is just... I'd rather just stay civil here so I'll just walk away.

[newtogolf]

The fraud is that these calls for non-violence and restraint are made with the fraudulent implication that you and the state system in which you hold power have been dealing with the community in question with calm and order and restraint all along so this violent reaction is just totally incomprehensible.

Well, he's a national correspondent for the Atlantic who's been investigating and thinking about writing about these issues for years, grew up in the neighborhood where the rioting started, and his mother grew up in the same housing project where the guy who died lived.  But of course, you're not actually arguing about his credibility.  You're just hand waving, talking dismissively about everyone's opinions, then pretending that since every just has an opinion the true story must be whatever your opinion is.

I think it gives him a much greater and more personal understanding of what's going on.  That doesn't logically imply he's "right", but it does mean his opinion is wildly better informed than ours.

If you read my previous posts you'd see that I fully support mandating body cameras be worn by police officers 24/7.   As for his credibility, he's giving an opinion which is worth no more or no less than anyone else.  He's also a "correspondent" which means he benefits from stirring the pot.

My other point is the people they are having a violent reaction to is their own.  They are lashing out at a government and police force that is mostly black democrats who they likely voted for.

I also don't accept the riots and looting is about the mis-conduct of the police department or Freddie Gray, it's about having an opportunity to steal and destroy things with minimal risk of being arrested, aka thuggery.  These people are too stupid to even realize they burned down the businesses that employ them and provide them products and services.

[dsc123]

I just refuse to even try to have a discussion with anyone who would say something like that. I have no problem admitting that there are cases of police brutality, but what you said is just... I'd rather just stay civil here so I'll just walk away.

To be fair, you shut down the discussion when he said something you didnt' agree with and you said you don't care to discuss the issue any further with someone who holds such an opinion.

Also, his point wasn't that there are cases of police brutality.  His point was that there's a defacto policy of police brutality.  You don't get points for admitting the undeniable.

If you read my previous posts you'd see that I fully support mandating body cameras be worn by police officers 24/7.   As for his credibility, he's giving an opinion which is worth no more or no less than anyone else.  He's also a "correspondent" which means he benefits from stirring the pot.

My other point is the people they are having a violent reaction to is their own.  They are lashing out at a government and police force that is mostly black democrats who they likely voted for.

I also don't accept the riots and looting is about the mis-conduct of the police department or Freddie Gray, it's about having an opportunity to steal and destroy things with minimal risk of being arrested, aka thuggery.  These people are too stupid to even realize they burned down the businesses that employ them and provide them products and services.

asdf

As for his credibility, he's giving an opinion which is worth no more or no less than anyone else.  He's also a "correspondent" which means he benefits from stirring the pot.

I dont know...he's a well regarded writer who grew up in circumstances we're all here talking about.  I'm not saying it means he's right, but he is certainly more knowledgeable about it than any of us.  That's worth something.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

My other point is the people they are having a violent reaction to is their own.  They are lashing out at a government and police force that is mostly black democrats who they likely voted for.

I also don't accept the riots and looting is about the mis-conduct of the police department or Freddie Gray, it's about having an opportunity to steal and destroy things with minimal risk of being arrested, aka thuggery.  These people are too stupid to even realize they burned down the businesses that employ them and provide them products and services.

You're only talking about the looters, right?  I'm sure there is some element of opportunism, but don't you think there's also an element of frustration boiling over?

This isn't really about race, beyond the fact that poverty and race may be related.  As has been pointed out numerous times, the mayor, state's attorney, and police commissioner are all black, and the police force is half black.  Its not republican versus democrat, either.  Its really about these poor neighborhoods versus the police.

The looting is such a small part of this.  I understand why it gets so much attention, but I think it does a disservice to the real issues.  We have a poisonous relationship between the police and this community under which its possible for a man to end up dead because he ran away from the cops.

[Jeremie Boop]

To be fair, you shut down the discussion when he said something you didnt' agree with and you said you don't care to discuss the issue any further with someone who holds such an opinion.

Also, his point wasn't that there are cases of police brutality.  His point was that there's a defacto policy of police brutality.  You don't get points for admitting the undeniable.

I didn't expect to "get points" for anything. There are cases of policy brutality, no doubt, but there is no policy that advocates for police brutality. The police do no "rain constant violence" on communities. If people want to see what constant violence looks like, pull the police out of these bad neighborhoods.

[phan52]

You're only talking about the looters, right?  I'm sure there is some element of opportunism, but don't you think there's also an element of frustration boiling over?

This isn't really about race, beyond the fact that poverty and race may be related.  As has been pointed out numerous times, the mayor, state's attorney, and police commissioner are all black, and the police force is half black.  Its not republican versus democrat, either.  Its really about these poor neighborhoods versus the police.

The looting is such a small part of this.  I understand why it gets so much attention, but I think it does a disservice to the real issues.  We have a poisonous relationship between the police and this community under which its possible for a man to end up dead because he ran away from the cops.

Totally agree with this assessment. The reaction is less about Freddy Gray than it is about the systemic abusive relationship between the community and, not only the police, but the justice system as well.

[dsc123]

I didn't expect to "get points" for anything. There are cases of policy brutality, no doubt, but there is no policy that advocates for police brutality. The police do no "rain constant violence" on communities. If people want to see what constant violence looks like, pull the police out of these bad neighborhoods.

Okay.  Well, the people who actually live there seem to disagree.  Coats being one of them.  Have you ever been to Sandtown?

[Jeremie Boop]

Okay.  Well, the people who actually live there seem to disagree.  Coats being one of them.  Have you ever been to Sandtown?

I need to have been there or lived there to understand that "rain constant violence" is a gross overstatement of what is reality? If the cops had such a militant and violent hold on the community wouldn't the violence and crime be down there instead of as high as it is? It's really an endless cycle, neighborhood goes bad, police presence increases, altercations happen between police and suspects, some cases are truly a cop overboard. These cases of real police brutality are concentrated on areas of high crime because the police are there more than other places. The number of interactions that are peaceful/nonviolent outweigh those that aren't by a huge margin. The answer is weed out the bad cops, utilize the cameras and get rid of the small number of bad cops out there that are giving the rest a bad image. The answer is not vilify entire police departments and police in general by saying they "rain constant violence" on communities.

[newtogolf]

You're only talking about the looters, right?  I'm sure there is some element of opportunism, but don't you think there's also an element of frustration boiling over?

This isn't really about race, beyond the fact that poverty and race may be related.  As has been pointed out numerous times, the mayor, state's attorney, and police commissioner are all black, and the police force is half black.  Its not republican versus democrat, either.  Its really about these poor neighborhoods versus the police.

The looting is such a small part of this.  I understand why it gets so much attention, but I think it does a disservice to the real issues.  We have a poisonous relationship between the police and this community under which its possible for a man to end up dead because he ran away from the cops.

Of course I am only talking about the looters and other criminal acts.  I'm a fiscally conservative 49 year old white male with two teenage kids and I am 100% against the abuse of power exhibited by local police departments.  I have instructed my children to speak in a respectful manner and comply with the requests of the officers but I've seen enough YouTube videos and news reports to know there are bad cops out there that get their kicks from bullying citizens.  That said I also believe suspects must comply with an officers demands and not resist arrest otherwise they risk of bodily harm.

As I've stated previously I also am 100% against the acquisition of military grade equipment by local police forces.  It not only increases the tax burden but I don't believe it's within their charter to act as an extension of the National Guard.  Our police force doesn't need armored vehicles and drones.

I'd fully support and participate in a peaceful protest that addressed police brutality, mandated the use of body cameras and denied them access to military grade weaponry.  Looting, arson and assaulting innocent people is not peaceful protest and will not garner any public sympathy or support from me.  I am sure some are so frustrated they feel that acting out is their only option but I believe they are the minority.  When I watched the footage of the fires and looting, I didn't see anyone doing it for the "cause" I saw kids grabbing free stuff because they could.

My only reason for bringing race or political affiliation up was because a mostly white republican government and police force were blamed for the situation in Ferguson, and in Baltimore it's almost completely opposite.  The solution proposed in Ferguson was to hire more black cops and appoint more black council people.

The police need to be more accountable to the public regardless of the neighborhood demographics.

[dsc123]

I need to have been there or lived there to understand that "rain constant violence" is a gross overstatement of what is reality? If the cops had such a militant and violent hold on the community wouldn't the violence and crime be down there instead of as high as it is? It's really an endless cycle, neighborhood goes bad, police presence increases, altercations happen between police and suspects, some cases are truly a cop overboard. These cases of real police brutality are concentrated on areas of high crime because the police are there more than other places. The number of interactions that are peaceful/nonviolent outweigh those that aren't by a huge margin. The answer is weed out the bad cops, utilize the cameras and get rid of the small number of bad cops out there that are giving the rest a bad image. The answer is not vilify entire police departments and police in general by saying they "rain constant violence" on communities.

No, but wouldn't you agree that people who have been there and who have lived there, probably know more about it than you?

Yes, "rain constant violence" is probably an overstatement, but its probably closer than "a few bad cops", too.   And its understandable that the relationship is what it is, but that doesn't mean its acceptable.  We have to demand more from the people we choose to police us.

Of course I am only talking about the looters and other criminal acts.  I'm a fiscally conservative 49 year old white male with two teenage kids and I am 100% against the abuse of power exhibited by local police departments.  I have instructed my children to speak in a respectful manner and comply with the requests of the officers but I've seen enough YouTube videos and news reports to know there are bad cops out there that get their kicks from bullying citizens.  That said I also believe suspects must comply with an officers demands and not resist arrest otherwise they risk of bodily harm.

As I've stated previously I also am 100% against the acquisition of military grade equipment by local police forces.  It not only increases the tax burden but I don't believe it's within their charter to act as an extension of the National Guard.  Our police force doesn't need armored vehicles and drones.

I'd fully support and participate in a peaceful protest that addressed police brutality, mandated the use of body cameras and denied them access to military grade weaponry.  Looting, arson and assaulting innocent people is not peaceful protest and will not garner any public sympathy or support from me.  I am sure some are so frustrated they feel that acting out is their only option but I believe they are the minority.  When I watched the footage of the fires and looting, I didn't see anyone doing it for the "cause" I saw kids grabbing free stuff because they could.

My only reason for bringing race or political affiliation up was because a mostly white republican government and police force were blamed for the situation in Ferguson, and in Baltimore it's almost completely opposite.  The solution proposed in Ferguson was to hire more black cops and appoint more black council people.

The police need to be more accountable to the public regardless of the neighborhood demographics.

Gotcha.  As we've said, we mostly agree on this stuff.

[Jeremie Boop]

No, but wouldn't you agree that people who have been there and who have lived there, probably know more about it than you?

Yes, "rain constant violence" is probably an overstatement, but its probably closer than "a few bad cops", too.   And its understandable that the relationship is what it is, but that doesn't mean its acceptable.  We have to demand more from the people we choose to police us.

We absolutely should expect better of the Police, that's why I also advocate for the body cameras to eliminate anyone who steps over the line. I still hold to the few bad cops being much more likely. Of course, since you are already of the mindset that the problem is based on the attitude of cops, I expect you'd see many more at fault than I would. Because of that, I don't think that we'd really ever see eye to eye on this discussion. The only thing I know for sure we agree on is that we need to get rid of the bad cops as soon as possible.

[jamo]

Seriously? "Rains constant violence"...  With a standpoint like that I guess there really isn't anything I can/care to say.

Have you read the original Baltimore Sun piece? http://data.baltimoresun.com/news/police-settlements/

[Jeremie Boop]

Have you read the original Baltimore Sun piece?

http://data.baltimoresun.com/news/police-settlements/

The city has over 100,000 arrests a year and many times more than 100,000 interactions between police and citizens per year and something over 100 of those over 4 years resulted in settlements. Not condoning those cases at all, but that hardly backs up the statement of raining constant violence.

[Ernest Jones]

The city has over 100,000 arrests a year and many times more than 100,000 interactions between police and citizens per year and something over 100 of those over 4 years resulted in settlements. Not condoning those cases at all, but that hardly backs up the statement of raining constant violence.

You do realize that the vast majority of victims of police profiling and brutality are unlikely to step forward and register complaints with the same institution (read: The Man) who assaulted them to begin with? It's like rape and domestic assault, the cases we actually hear about are just a fraction of the tip of the iceberg.