Baltimore protests

[saevel25]

Where do your numbers come from? Are they nationwide?

The original study was done by the CATO institute.

[jusanothajoe]

I bet the ratio of bad people to bad cops is 100 to 1. Maybe 1000 to 1

[Abu3baid]

I bet the ratio of bad people to bad cops is 100 to 1. Maybe 1000 to 1

I think it would be more appropriate to measure in terms of percentage within each group.. So compare the percentage of bad people to the population minus the cops and then the percentage of bad cops to the total population of cops.. To say that it is 100 to 1 or 1000 to 1 doesn't really say much as the total population is over 300M while how many total cops are there?!

[dsc123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jusanothajoe

I bet the ratio of bad people to bad cops is 100 to 1.

And...what?

I don't think anyone is saying that all police are bad, or that most police are bad.  Police supporters always seem to take any criticism of the police that way.

All I'm saying is that many officers, particularly in poor neighborhoods, are quick to arrest and quick to use force and begin interactions in such a confrontational way that its impossible for them to have a good relationship with the people.  My argument goes way beyond "brutality."  Its not just about the times when a cop beats up a person or kills a person.  Its about the times when a cop frisks a guy who did nothing wrong.  Its about the protesters who are arrested for no reason.  Its about the times that cops give unlawful orders.  All of that contributes to a poisonous relationship between the cops and the community.

There are reasons for this--they are high crime areas and they value their own safety--and its not ONLY the cops fault.   But the cops are the people that we pay to police us.  They are the people who sign up for the job.  They are the ones we have to expect more from.  They are the ones we can control.

---

Quote:

Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake on Wednesday asked the U.S. Department of Justice to probe city police practices and said officers will have body cameras by 2016.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/politics/bs-md-ci-doj-partnership-20150506-story.html

Quote:

Rep. Elijah E. Cummings, a Baltimore Democrat, said Lynch did not rule out an investigation of "patterns and practices" of possible legal and constitutional violations in the Police Department, similar to a probe the federal agency conducted in Ferguson, Mo.

Cummings called this "a transformative moment" that could change policing across the nation. When Lynch spoke to clergy members, "the ministers made it clear that they do not just see this as a Baltimore issue," he said.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-gray-loretta-lynch-20150505-story.html#page=1

Quote:

Much of Lynch's five-hour fact-finding mission was spent behind closed doors listening to Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, Police Commissioner Anthony W. Batts , clergy leaders and activists who frequently protest alleged police brutality and excessive force.

So on the side of those thinking there is a widespread pattern of abuse by the police in Baltimore, we have:

1. Thousands of people who protested
2. Local clery and activists
3. The Mayor elected by the people of Baltimore
4. A congressman who represents the people of Baltimore.
5. A well known writer who grew up in Sandtown
6. The Local newspaper editors (Baltimore Sun)
7. The Attorney General
8. Public Defenders in Baltimore
9. The hundreds of thousands of people who ever watched the Wire

On the side of the people who think there's no widespread practice, just a few bad apples, we have:

• jusanothajoe from Alabama
• Jeremie Boop from Ohio
• Gunther from Dallas
• Some current and former police officers

[dsc123]

I think it would be more appropriate to measure in terms of percentage within each group.. So compare the percentage of bad people to the population minus the cops and then the percentage of bad cops to the total population of cops.. To say that it is 100 to 1 or 1000 to 1 doesn't really say much as the total population is over 300M while how many total cops are there?!

Right.  He is basically saying that cops are 3.5 times more likely to be bad people, according to the numbers he pulled out of his rear end.

[RFKFREAK]

Discussing police and the communities, it reminds me of the time I was in a Kissimmee, Florida in a section of the city that is/was predominantly African-American.  I was helping out on a project which required myself and another individual to be in the community overnight.

As we were walking on the street from the car, a cop car stopped us and asked us what we were doing there.  I explained to him what we were doing and the cop asked where the car was and I told him where it was and he said it was a bad neighborhood and that we should leave.  I told the cop we would go back to the car and then as he left, we proceeded to go do what we had originally intended to do.  Looking back, though, we weren't doing anything wrong, nor do I think we were doing anything suspicious yet the cop approached us, I believe, solely because we were walking on a street and probably looked out of place.  I can only imagine what it would have been like had we looked like we were from that community.

[jusanothajoe]

And...what?

I don't think anyone is saying that all police are bad, or that most police are bad.  Police supporters always seem to take any criticism of the police that way.

All I'm saying is that many officers, particularly in poor neighborhoods, are quick to arrest and quick to use force and begin interactions in such a confrontational way that its impossible for them to have a good relationship with the people.  My argument goes way beyond "brutality."  Its not just about the times when a cop beats up a person or kills a person.  Its about the times when a cop frisks a guy who did nothing wrong.  Its about the protesters who are arrested for no reason.  Its about the times that cops give unlawful orders.  All of that contributes to a poisonous relationship between the cops and the community.

There are reasons for this--they are high crime areas and they value their own safety--and its not ONLY the cops fault.   But the cops are the people that we pay to police us.  They are the people who sign up for the job.  They are the ones we have to expect more from.  They are the ones we can control.

So on the side of those thinking there is a widespread pattern of abuse by the police in Baltimore, we have:

Thousands of people who protested

Local clery and activists

The Mayor elected by the people of Baltimore

A congressman who represents the people of Baltimore.

A well known writer who grew up in Sandtown

The Local newspaper editors (Baltimore Sun)

The Attorney General

Public Defenders in Baltimore

The hundreds of thousands of people who ever watched the Wire

On the side of the people who think there's no widespread practice, just a few bad apples, we have:

jusanothajoe from Alabama

Jeremie Boop from Ohio

Gunther from Dallas

Some current and former police officers

1. Police bashers ( sorry couldn't think of a better word ) always seem to take the side of the criminal

2. I agree with this, but WHY do they do this ?

3. And yes I did pull the numbers out of my butt.

[jusanothajoe]

Right.  He is basically saying that cops are 3.5 times more likely to be bad people, according to the numbers he pulled out of his rear end.

Didn't see this before I responded to the other post so I hope the multi quote police don't get me. Now your pullin numbers out of your butt.

[mdl]

Of course I am only talking about the looters and other criminal acts.  I'm a fiscally conservative 49 year old white male with two teenage kids and I am 100% against the abuse of power exhibited by local police departments.  I have instructed my children to speak in a respectful manner and comply with the requests of the officers but I've seen enough YouTube videos and news reports to know there are bad cops out there that get their kicks from bullying citizens.  That said I also believe suspects must comply with an officers demands and not resist arrest otherwise they risk of bodily harm.

As I've stated previously I also am 100% against the acquisition of military grade equipment by local police forces.  It not only increases the tax burden but I don't believe it's within their charter to act as an extension of the National Guard.  Our police force doesn't need armored vehicles and drones.

I'd fully support and participate in a peaceful protest that addressed police brutality, mandated the use of body cameras and denied them access to military grade weaponry.  Looting, arson and assaulting innocent people is not peaceful protest and will not garner any public sympathy or support from me.  I am sure some are so frustrated they feel that acting out is their only option but I believe they are the minority.  When I watched the footage of the fires and looting, I didn't see anyone doing it for the "cause" I saw kids grabbing free stuff because they could.

My only reason for bringing race or political affiliation up was because a mostly white republican government and police force were blamed for the situation in Ferguson, and in Baltimore it's almost completely opposite.  The solution proposed in Ferguson was to hire more black cops and appoint more black council people.

The police need to be more accountable to the public regardless of the neighborhood demographics.

I agree with all of this.  My point is just that it's easy as someone who's not black and didn't grow up in a poor/working class, dysfunctional neighborhood to discount and not understand the poisonous nature of the relationship between (non-criminal) citizens and police.   Not that I claim to understand, just that I try to be conscious of the fact I can't truly understand that experience.  I would support the body camera movement as a catalyst for shifting cultures within police forces.  But the dysfunction there seems more, to me, a function of the fact that we the majority – non-poor white Americans – have decided, for example, to continue to marginalize black Americans by reacting to what must be understood in the context of centuries of slavery, racism, and public policy at every level of government designed to oppress or marginalize black Americans with a punitive drug war aimed mostly at black people.  It's no surprise we end up with the problems with police that we do in that context.

You do realize that the vast majority of victims of police profiling and brutality are unlikely to step forward and register complaints with the same institution (read: The Man) who assaulted them to begin with?

It's like rape and domestic assault, the cases we actually hear about are just a fraction of the tip of the iceberg.

Yup.

[mdl]

Where do your numbers come from? Are they nationwide?

I'd imagine they are. In which case you have to consider that the rate is likely 0 in some places, and a lot higher in others, like sandtown.

Also, what is misconduct? A reported case where an investigation resulted in a finding of misconduct? So we're excluding cases where the cops were absolved, correctly or not, and we're excluding cases where misconduct was not reported.

Also, consider that if a particular neighborhood is patrolled by 25 different cops, how many have to be bad for the neighborhood to be oppressed? 2 or 3? of they're going around playing cowboy 5 days a weeek, that neighborhood might feel like it's under constant attack, even if 22 or 23 out of those 25 are great guys.

siimilarly, how many bad acts does it take for people to feel like their under fire? Freddie Gray was killed once, but the whole neighborhood knows that if they make eye contact with a cop and then run, even if they'very done nothing wrong, the cops might sever their spine. You might sit there and say that only happened once, but that poisons the relationship with the entire neighborhood.

I've had a Baltimore police officer advise me thay my "rights" include doing whatever an officer in uniform tells me to do, then illegally enter my home without my permisssion. nothing came of it, and other than the intangible violation of my rights, no harm was done. thats one of the very few bad interactions ive had woth cops but that's all it takes to sow resentment and distrust.

+1 Exactly

[14ledo81]

Originally Posted by dsc123

So on the side of those thinking there is a widespread pattern of abuse by the police in Baltimore, we have:

Thousands of people who protested

Local clery and activists

The Mayor elected by the people of Baltimore

A congressman who represents the people of Baltimore.

A well known writer who grew up in Sandtown

The Local newspaper editors (Baltimore Sun)

The Attorney General

Public Defenders in Baltimore

The hundreds of thousands of people who ever watched the Wire

Just wanted to second @jusanothajoe ' s question.

Why?

Lets say they are correct, and there is widespread abuse.  Why?

[jusanothajoe]

Three of the charged police were black, so I don't think the motivation was racial ? So what was it ? Do I think some police go overboard ? of course I do.......... ever watch cops ? Saw it reported last night that since Freddie Grey's death there have been 13 murders in Baltimore. Most were black on black crime. Where is the outrage ? Where are the protests and looting ? Are the communities not tired of this ? When the police try to solve these crimes do they get full cooperation of the community ?

Just saying, a lot of mistrust on both sides and all the blame is not on the police force.

[newtogolf]

Discussing police and the communities, it reminds me of the time I was in a Kissimmee, Florida in a section of the city that is/was predominantly African-American.  I was helping out on a project which required myself and another individual to be in the community overnight.

As we were walking on the street from the car, a cop car stopped us and asked us what we were doing there.  I explained to him what we were doing and the cop asked where the car was and I told him where it was and he said it was a bad neighborhood and that we should leave.  I told the cop we would go back to the car and then as he left, we proceeded to go do what we had originally intended to do.  Looking back, though, we weren't doing anything wrong, nor do I think we were doing anything suspicious yet the cop approached us, I believe, solely because we were walking on a street and probably looked out of place.  I can only imagine what it would have been like had we looked like we were from that community.

My guess is you were engaged by the police officer because you didn't appear to be from the neighborhood and they thought you were there to buy drugs.

[mmoan2]

Discussing police and the communities, it reminds me of the time I was in a Kissimmee, Florida in a section of the city that is/was predominantly African-American.  I was helping out on a project which required myself and another individual to be in the community overnight.

As we were walking on the street from the car, a cop car stopped us and asked us what we were doing there.  I explained to him what we were doing and the cop asked where the car was and I told him where it was and he said it was a bad neighborhood and that we should leave.  I told the cop we would go back to the car and then as he left, we proceeded to go do what we had originally intended to do.  Looking back, though, we weren't doing anything wrong, nor do I think we were doing anything suspicious yet the cop approached us, I believe, solely because we were walking on a street and probably looked out of place.  I can only imagine what it would have been like had we looked like we were from that community.

This has happened to me a few times, but the best was when I took a wrong turn in Puerto Rico with two of my white friends when we were about 20 on vacation before beginning summer jobs. We ended up in some awful part of some small beach town, and we were stopped by the authorities. One had an M-16 with a laser scope pointed at my head from about 25 yards away, and the other came to my window. I was so scared that when he asked me why we were there in Spanish, I said "No hablo ingles! No hablo ingles!" to which he smiled and said, "Ah, I see you're a wise guy." A minute later it was all cleared up and they let us go, but we were apparently on a street known for being a big cocaine distribution site. Bottom line I learned - when the cops pull you over, be as completely respectful and innocent as possible to generally diffuse the situation. If you start saying stuff like "I know my rights" or "I don't need to show you my ID," you're just asking for further trouble. Even if there's no reason to pull you over, just be smart and not haughty.

In this Freddie Grey situation, many people are earnestly claiming "In this country, is it against the law to run from a cop when they look you in the eye?" It may not be against the law, but it's pretty stupid, especially if you have 18 counts on your police record (which he did) and you live in a high crime area known for its illegal street drug distribution activity. The man certainly didn't deserve to die, but did he think he was going to get away?

[RFKFREAK]

My guess is you were engaged by the police officer because you didn't appear to be from the neighborhood and they thought you were there to buy drugs.

I suspect that, as well, but we weren't doing anything except walking on a street and I'm not sure that because we look a certain way that we should have been considered as being there to do something illegal.

This has happened to me a few times, but the best was when I took a wrong turn in Puerto Rico with two of my white friends when we were about 20 on vacation before beginning summer jobs. We ended up in some awful part of some small beach town, and we were stopped by the authorities. One had an M-16 with a laser scope pointed at my head from about 25 yards away, and the other came to my window. I was so scared that when he asked me why we were there in Spanish, I said "No hablo ingles! No hablo ingles!" to which he smiled and said, "Ah, I see you're a wise guy." A minute later it was all cleared up and they let us go, but we were apparently on a street known for being a big cocaine distribution site. Bottom line I learned - when the cops pull you over, be as completely respectful and innocent as possible to generally diffuse the situation. If you start saying stuff like "I know my rights" or "I don't need to show you my ID," you're just asking for further trouble. Even if there's no reason to pull you over, just be smart and not haughty.

In this Freddie Grey situation, many people are earnestly claiming "In this country, is it against the law to run from a cop when they look you in the eye?" It may not be against the law, but it's pretty stupid, especially if you have 18 counts on your police record (which he did) and you live in a high crime area known for its illegal street drug distribution activity. The man certainly didn't deserve to die, but did he think he was going to get away?

Here's the thing, though, if someone knows their rights, why shouldn't they be well within their rights to exercise them without it being construed as asking for further trouble, facing retaliation, or it being deemed, "being stupid?"

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

My guess is you were engaged by the police officer because you didn't appear to be from the neighborhood and they thought you were there to buy drugs.

I suspect that, as well, but we weren't doing anything except walking on a street and I'm not sure that because we look a certain way that we should have been considered as being there to do something illegal.

Why not?  Maybe the vast majority of the time, when the cops see white people in that area, they are there to buy drugs.  If that was the case, what are they supposed to think?

[RFKFREAK]

Why not?  Maybe the vast majority of the time, when the cops see white people in that area, they are there to buy drugs.  If that was the case, what are they supposed to think?

So, you're saying they should presume someone is about to or is doing something illegal because of the way they look and act upon it?

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

Why not?  Maybe the vast majority of the time, when the cops see white people in that area, they are there to buy drugs.  If that was the case, what are they supposed to think?

So, you're saying they should presume someone is about to or is doing something illegal because of the way they look and act upon it?

I'm saying they should do what is necessary to keep the crime from happening.

And, all they did was question you.  No harm there?

If I have nothing to hide, why would I care if they asked what I was doing?