Does the greenside fringe (1st) cut count for a GIR ?

[rkim291968]

I think I know the answer but will ask for confirmation.   For stat purpose, it counts as one putt if the initial putt from green ends up in 1st cut, and then you hole out (another putt) from there, right?

[natureboy]

I try to play legit (at least to the best of my remedial understanding of the rules), so if it's not on the green, I won't count it.

I think it's technically part of the fairway. Not a 'green', but still valuable to track. GoFIR (green or fringe in regulation) is even more closely correlated with scoring average for the PGA than GIR. Mark Broadie suggests that GIRP ('GIR plus one' / bogey GIR) is more closely correlated with scoring average and handicap for higher than scratch players, because our shot dispersion is wider. It's probably similar to tracking nGIR.

Although it would not count on tour (and I'm not on tour), I've always counted it as half a GIR if the ball is on the fringe and close enough to putt (usually off the green by a foot or less). So at the end of the round, if I've had four cases of missing a green by a foot or less and used the putter each time, that totals two GIRs. That's just for my own diagnostic purposes to see in which areas of the game I'm improving and in which I'm losing ground. Otherwise, a ball an inch off the green would count the same as one in the trap, or the water, or 50 yards short of the green, which would be misleading statistically.

I sometimes hear golf announcers comment about a shot that is six inches off the green but less than 10 feet from hole: "That won't count as a GIR on the stat sheet, but it's still a good shot."

Just my .02 worth.

A ball on the fringe is much more valuable than one in a greenside trap for up & down chances.

Here are GIR, GoFIR, & GIRP ~ correlated with handicap.

Avg Score	65	70	75	80	85	90	95	100	105	110	115	120
~ HCP (Course Rating 75)	-11.1	-6.5	-1.9	2.7	7.3	11.9	16.5	21.1	25.7	30.3	34.9	39.5
~ HCP (Course Rating 72)	-8.6	-4.0	0.6	5.2	9.8	14.4	19.0	23.6	28.2	32.8	37.4	42.0
~ HCP (Course Rating 68)	-4.0	0.6	5.2	9.8	14.4	19.0	23.6	28.2	32.8	37.4	42.0	46.6
# GIR (Broadie)	15.49	12.03	9.22	6.97	5.20	3.83	2.78	1.96	1.31	0.72	0.14	0.00
% GIR (Broadie)	86.0	66.8	51.2	38.7	28.9	21.3	15.4	10.9	7.3	4.0	0.8	0.0
# GoFIR	16.38	12.98	10.20	7.98	6.23	4.87	3.83	3.01	2.36	1.78	1.19	0.52
% GoFIR	91.0	72.1	56.7	44.3	34.6	27.1	21.3	16.7	13.1	9.9	6.6	2.9
# GIRP	17.98	17.38	16.47	15.33	14.00	12.56	11.06	9.56	8.12	6.81	5.69	4.81
% GIRP	100.0	96.5	91.5	85.2	77.8	69.8	61.4	53.1	45.1	37.8	31.6	26.7

[Aguirre]

Can you say that a ball is in a bunker if it is on the fairway? I've heard people say that it has to be in a hazard to count as being in a hazard.  If you have  a 5 can you call it a 4?

The rules of this game just drive me crazy! It's so confusing?

I hope you're being deliberately obtuse, but probably not.

[Shorty]

I hope you're being deliberately obtuse, but probably not.

No, I'm dead serious.

We've had a couple of pages where people generously give their opinions about whether a ball that is off the green is actually on the green.

The OP raises a very valid point and it shows how confusing the rules are.

For example:

If a ball is on the fairway, is it actually in the rough?

If a ball is out of bounds, is it actually in the hole?

If a ball is left ion the bunker when it is hit fat, is it still in the bunker, or back on the tee?

Unless you can answer these questions, I'd thank you to keep your remarks to yourself.

This is the one that confuses me - and don't answer unless you actually KNOW the rule:

If a ball is ON the green, can I say it is in the rough if I want to improve my stats?

It would also stand to reason that my stats can be improved by calling anything over a 6 a 3.

[k-troop]

This is the one that confuses me - and don't answer unless you actually KNOW the rule:

If a ball is ON the green, can I say it is in the rough if I want to improve my stats?

I checked the rules of golf, and I couldn't find anything controlling about how stats should be kept.  :-)

Since golfers keep stats to show them what to work on, counting a fringe as a GIR might make sense to them.  As in "that was a successfully executed approach shot."

Hey @Shorty answer me this:  which would you consider the more successful approach?

1. Ball rests on the fringe, level with the hole, 15 feet away.

2. Ball rests on the green, on a separate tier above the hole, 45 feet away?

[iacas]

Hey @Shorty answer me this:  which would you consider the more successful approach?

1. Ball rests on the fringe, level with the hole, 15 feet away.

2. Ball rests on the green, on a separate tier above the hole, 45 feet away?

Irrelevant. They balance out over time.

I agree that if you want to keep stats accurately, and be able to converse with others about them, you simply follow the very easy "black and white" definitions.

Not all missed greens are the same, nor are all hit greens. It all shakes out in the wash, though.

[Mac62]

Can you say that a ball is in a bunker if it is on the fairway? I've heard people say that it has to be in a hazard to count as being in a hazard.  If you have  a 5 can you call it a 4?

The rules of this game just drive me crazy! It's so confusing?

I thought the OP was talking strictly about tracking stats for personal use in charting his improvement.  If the question was about whether he could take relief from an abnormal condition on the putting green before playing his ball from the fringe, or some other situation which could potentially have an impact upon his score or the outcome of a match, then I can see where the Rules of Golf certainly come into play.  If the question is about somebody simply tracking their stats to see where their shortcomings are or how they're improving, I don't see where the Rules of Golf are relevant in any way.  Sure, it's going to slightly skew his putting stats, but that's for him to deal with.  It won't affect his handicap or score in any way.  I can't equate that in any way to cheating, as you did above.

If I'm golfing with a fellow competitor and he informs me that he counts shots on the fringe as GIR for tracking his own personal stats, I'd shrug my shoulders and say have at it.  If he throws a ball out of a bunker into the fairway because a bunker is close to the fairway and they should count the same, I'd call him on it.  If he taps in a "gimme" putt and doesn't take a stroke because "it was close enough", I'd call him on it.  One means absolutely nothing to anybody but him, the others mean something to the outcome of a match and are a violation of the Rules of Golf.

[ETA:] I understand iacas' point about keeping stats accurately if you want to be able to compare them/converse about them with others - it's only useful to compare like with like for those purposes.  If I arbitrarily decide that I'm going to track every shot within 20' of the green as a GIR, my stats aren't going to be relevant when comparing them to conventional GIR stats where it doesn't count unless it's on the dance floor.

[Shorty]

[ETA:] I understand iacas' point about keeping stats accurately if you want to be able to compare them/converse about them with others - it's only useful to compare like with like for those purposes.  If I arbitrarily decide that I'm going to track every shot within 20' of the green as a GIR, my stats aren't going to be relevant when comparing them to conventional GIR stats where it doesn't count unless it's on the dance floor.

The point is that it should have ended after the first response. Instead, we have people giving "opinions" about something that is not even open to question, let alone debate.

A ball on the green is on the green.

A ball not on the green is not on the green.

Stats - bragging rights - whatever - all stem from that.

But it must be some kind of confusing form of rocket science.

Yes, I would rather putt from an inch off the green when the hole is 8 feet away compared to being on the green with a 40 foot downhill putt on a fast green.

But what has that got to do with someone wondering if they can count a ball that is not on the green as being on the green?

Please stop the insanity. Then I will stop the annoying, sarcastic and facetious comments.

[BuckeyeNut]

I've seen several conflicting definitions / opinions on this ... I'm just looking for a definitive answer - if you wind up close to the green on the fringe, is it a GIR - or do you absolutely have to be on the green  ?

Thx

If you keep hole-by-hole stats, this is an important distinction.   A fringe is NOT a GIR.    So what if you hit a quality shot to the fringe and make a 10' putt for birdie?   This counts as a green missed............and zero putts.   Whether you used a putter or not is not relevant.   It's a missed green and zero putts for the stats.

[Aguirre]

No, I'm dead serious.

As I suspected.

[Aguirre]

Instead, we have people giving "opinions" about something that is not even open to question, let alone debate.

Who has done this?

[Shorty]

Who has done this?

Rather than being so hell bent on picking a fight with me and taking everything literally, get you irony detector in order and read the thread. It is full of people repeating over and over what they think.

Take your wrath elsewhere. (And to those scratching their heads, it's a reference to his screen name.)