A tale of two tees ...

[natureboy]

No pattern.  The yardage difference comes down to 35 yards per hole.  Some holes have much longer gap than 35 yards and others don't.    It makes a few more holes easier to GIR,   A few holes have fairway bunkers start around 200 yards which I cannot carry.    I am less consistent with hybrids and 3 wood than long irons.   I am definitely less confidant playing from longer tee.   Maybe all these things add up to the 5 point difference.   I can't explain it.  My average stroke score from longer tee is 95.   From shorter tee, it should be 92.   Instead, I average high 80s from the shorter tee.    Maybe, the course rating is incorrectly assessed.  Longer tee - a tad too low, and shorter tee - a tad too high.  Every member plays from the longer tee and they claim the course plays tougher than the rating by at least 2 points.

One marshal said the shorter tee plays tougher for him.  B/c the course requires accuracy, casual golfers I paired up with seem to struggle from either tee.

I would do a hole by hole comparison, because it can matter.

A few extra greens do matter a lot to score.

Sounds like it could be the hybrid woods if you tend to hit a lot of awful shots (way offline or bad mishit / dribblers). If so, why not try a few rounds where on the lengthened par 4's and all par 5s where you only hit iron in on approach even if it means a bit short of the green, but still leaving yourself a short game scoring shot from the short grass? It would be better to improve your consistency with those clubs to get nearer the hole, but this experiment may highlight just how important they are (or aren't) for the scoring difference.

It could be the ratings too. I think the system is fairly rigorous, but the ratings teams might look to the reams of data coming in from golfing apps to see if there are some courses where they might be a bit off. Since you are not 'scratch' long the slope rating being too high for the shorter tees or not high enough for the back tees might be what's off in the rating.

[natureboy]

@rkim291968 Here's the chart I tried to post, but got timed out re. different 'typical' scoring on hole type by HCP.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

No pattern.  The yardage difference comes down to 35 yards per hole.  Some holes have much longer gap than 35 yards and others don't.    It makes a few more holes easier to GIR,   A few holes have fairway bunkers start around 200 yards which I cannot carry.    I am less consistent with hybrids and 3 wood than long irons.   I am definitely less confidant playing from longer tee.   Maybe all these things add up to the 5 point difference.   I can't explain it.  My average stroke score from longer tee is 95.   From shorter tee, it should be 92.   Instead, I average high 80s from the shorter tee.    Maybe, the course rating is incorrectly assessed.  Longer tee - a tad too low, and shorter tee - a tad too high.  Every member plays from the longer tee and they claim the course plays tougher than the rating by at least 2 points.

One marshal said the shorter tee plays tougher for him.  B/c the course requires accuracy, casual golfers I paired up with seem to struggle from either tee.

I would do a hole by hole comparison, because it can matter.

A few extra greens do matter a lot to score.

Sounds like it could be the hybrid woods if you tend to hit a lot of awful shots (way offline or bad mishit / dribblers). If so, why not try a few rounds where on the lengthened par 4's and all par 5s where you only hit iron in on approach even if it means a bit short of the green, but still leaving yourself a short game scoring shot from the short grass? It would be better to improve your consistency with those clubs to get nearer the hole, but this experiment may highlight just how important they are (or aren't) for the scoring difference.

It could be the ratings too. I think the system is fairly rigorous, but the ratings teams might look to the reams of data coming in from golfing apps to see if there are some courses where they might be a bit off. Since you are not 'scratch' long the slope rating being too high for the shorter tees or not high enough for the back tees might be what's off in the rating.

Good ideas.

I did go without hybrid or 3w for a round just to see how I would do from the longer tee.  I am more inconsistent with those clubs than any others including driver.   But I did my average on that round and left it at that.

I never done hole by hole analysis.  I did the 1st 5 below.  As you can see, I can't explain why the big discrepancy.  I think the rest of hole by hole analysis will be pretty similar.

#1 - long par 4, a stroke difference for a 25 yard difference.  I use hybrid on my approach shots for both tees.  There is no reason why there should be a stroke difference.   My suspicion is that I am OB'ng more from longer tee.   Tee box is up in the hill with huge elevation down to fairway.   Shorter tee box has much less elevation.   There is often wind which can blew tee shot from high elevation into OB areas.

#2 -  short par 3, 1/2 stroke difference for a 60 yard difference.  Path to the fairway is narrow with tall trees guarding right, deep rough on left.  From longer tee, drive has to carry another tree in the middle of left fairway.  From the longer tee, I often hit into trees or don't carry the tree on the left.  That explains the 1/2 stroke difference.

#3 - short par 3, 1/2 stroke difference for 10 yard difference.   No reason why there should be 1/2 stroke difference.

#4 - medium par 4, 0.7 stroke difference for 50 yard  difference.   From shorter tee, OB on the right & bunker come into picture but the approach shot is much shorter.   I.e, shorter distance is nullified by the trouble areas on right.   No reason why there should be 0.7 stroke difference.

#5 - short par 5, 1.5 stroke difference for 70 yard difference.   From longer tee, bunker comes into picture for a drive.  1 stroke difference makes sense but not 1.5.

In conclusion, as best as I can guess, here is my theory.

1) The longer tee brings more OB & trouble areas for my driver tee shot length (220 yards).  I.e, the course design doesn't suit me from longer tee.

2) More inconsistency with hybrids & 3W is hurting my approach shot for longer tee course more than it should.

3) Lack of confidence playing from longer tee.

4) Rating is slightly off?

[Strandly]

I was talking about tee differences with a guy I got paired with just last month.  We both were surprised how much harder it gets just from having to go up 1 club.  I suppose it depends where you play though, if the course is short anyway it might not matter so much.

[natureboy]

Good ideas.

I did go without hybrid or 3w for a round just to see how I would do from the longer tee.  I am more inconsistent with those clubs than any others including driver.   But I did my average on that round and left it at that.

I never done hole by hole analysis.  I did the 1st 5 below.  As you can see, I can't explain why the big discrepancy.  I think the rest of hole by hole analysis will be pretty similar.

#1 - long par 4, a stroke difference for a 25 yard difference.  I use hybrid on my approach shots for both tees.  There is no reason why there should be a stroke difference.   My suspicion is that I am OB'ng more from longer tee.   Tee box is up in the hill with huge elevation down to fairway.   Shorter tee box has much less elevation.   There is often wind which can blew tee shot from high elevation into OB areas.

#2 -  short par 3, 1/2 stroke difference for a 60 yard difference.  Path to the fairway is narrow with tall trees guarding right, deep rough on left.  From longer tee, drive has to carry another tree in the middle of left fairway.  From the longer tee, I often hit into trees or don't carry the tree on the left.  That explains the 1/2 stroke difference.

#3 - short par 3, 1/2 stroke difference for 10 yard difference.   No reason why there should be 1/2 stroke difference.

#4 - medium par 4, 0.7 stroke difference for 50 yard  difference.   From shorter tee, OB on the right & bunker come into picture but the approach shot is much shorter.   I.e, shorter distance is nullified by the trouble areas on right.   No reason why there should be 0.7 stroke difference.

#5 - short par 5, 1.5 stroke difference for 70 yard difference.   From longer tee, bunker comes into picture for a drive.  1 stroke difference makes sense but not 1.5.

In conclusion, as best as I can guess, here is my theory.

1) The longer tee brings more OB & trouble areas for my driver tee shot length (220 yards).  I.e, the course design doesn't suit me from longer tee.

2) More inconsistency with hybrids & 3W is hurting my approach shot for longer tee course more than it should.

3) Lack of confidence playing from longer tee.

4) Rating is slightly off?

I think the no woods / hybrid experiment would be more informative across several rounds, but up to you. Surprising that you don't hit the hybrid well if you hit your irons okay. Do you set up and swing at it like an iron two 'clubs' lower (I set up like a 5-iron for my 3-hybrid)?

I meant hole-by hole on the distance only, but including your score differential (avg across multiple rounds) is a good idea.

Assuming your gut sense of the tee shots being the cause is correct, try gripping down on driver to hit it lower off the elevated tee box. You can also check whether (across multiple rounds) your percent of shots hit to penalty is above what's typical for your handicap on each set of tees:

http://thesandtrap.com/t/80313/golf-stats-and-correlation-to-average-score-vs-handicap/72#post_1150090

If hole #3 is a long term scoring average, my guess would be that's short game and lag putting (both of which also generally improve with lower handicap). What's your 3-putt %? Does it change between tees (averaging at least 5 rounds on each tee)? Basically, the longer holes are making you swing with longer clubs which have a wider dispersion pattern so on average you are starting farther from the hole or the green along with some very costly extra-wide shots. So probably a mix of tee performance, & fairway bunkers (why do they come into play when you are on a longer tee - usually works the other way?), some poor wood shots, and extra strokes around the green are adding up.

[rkim291968]

If hole #3 is a long term scoring average, my guess would be that's short game and lag putting (both of which also generally improve with lower handicap). What's your 3-putt %? Does it change between tees (averaging at least 5 rounds on each tee)? Basically, the longer holes are making you swing with longer clubs which have a wider dispersion pattern so on average you are starting farther from the hole or the green along with some very costly extra-wide shots. So probably a mix of tee performance, & fairway bunkers (why do they come into play when you are on a longer tee - usually works the other way?), some poor wood shots, and extra strokes around the green are adding up.

I average one+ 3-putt per round.   My short game is my strength.    I averaged 31+ putts from short tee vs 32+ putts from longer one, 3.8 GIR vs 2.5 GIR.    The variance is expected.

On #4, I can't reach OB area or fairway bunker on the right with my driver from longer tee.  They start about 230 yards out.  If I play from shorter tee, both OB & fairway bunker comes into picture.

Here is another culprit I can think of.   There are 6 huge elevation drop tee shots, much less elevation from shorter tees.  My ball flights have high trajectory.  On windy day, strong cross wind can ruin my otherwise decent shot, more so from higher elevation tees.    As I write this, I am convinced that a lot of little things (distance, hybrid/3W inaccuracy, elevation, confidence, ...) are adding up to make the bigger than expected difference between the two scores.

[RandallT]

I'm always amazed at how I put a little more pressure on myself when I'm "forced" to hit a drive that is longer than normal. It's not like paralysis or anything, but the thought is definitely there that I need to play the hole better than I normally do just to make my normal score.

We have one hole where the cart path from the previous green comes to a T that's in a little valley. To the right is the next fairway heading up a hill, but to the left is a little walk back uphill to an elevated tee. We leave our bags at the T since we have to pass back this way anyway, pull out drivers, and trudge up to the tee. Pass the reds. Keep walking. Pass where the white tees normally are (350ish). Keep going. Crap why am I still walking? Where are the whites today as we get on tip toes? Keep walking. Geez, there they are, up where the blue tees are, and the blues are at the way back spot. Keep walking. Put the tee in the ground. Survey the shot. Crap, now I've gotta play a 390 hole.  I better really get a hold of this drive!

It's been a while since I've played the blues, so you've got me interested in taking a stab at it again to make sure I just have fun with it, relax, and play the shot before me and not think about how it is longer than what I typically face. I'll let you know how it goes. I haven't played much this year, but I'll try to remember to drop back here and let you know how it went.

[vangator]

The biggest difference for me when I play back are doglegs or hazards that I normally cut or blow past are now in my landing zone and I have to play the course how the designer had in mind. That's not fair! :-D

[Jeremie Boop]

The only thing that playing back tees would do to make my scores suffer is if they brought more hazards or OB into play. Even on the longer par 4's here from the whites, 440 ish, I'm typically hitting driver and pw-8 iron depending on wind and such. That's assuming I don't hit a snap hook of course. I've mentioned in other threads that my league course has a hole that has a pond with a forced carry of 240 or you can lay up and have a 150+ yard shot. I always hit driver there, the water doesn't even factor in for me because if I snap hook it's basically a layup and if I hit it decent I'm over the water. Now, if we move back to the blue tees, well that makes it a 260 ish carry and then I have to think about that. But that's the only hole on the course that moving back would actually make me change my strategy. Other courses around here are the same, blue tees typically only add a bit of distance and only a few actually bring other things in to worry about. I'm sure there are courses where playing the back tees really bring in a lot of different factors to worry about though.

*edit* Also, I have zero interest in moving forward though, if I want to play a shorter course I can just go to the executive course.

[14ledo81]

My scores suffer terribly from longer tees.

When I play from the whites at my home course (6000 yards), I may hit a 4 hybrid and a 6 iron in on a few holes.  The majority of the holes it is 9 iron or less though.  My skill level drops off considerably around the 6/7 iron range.  If I play from longer tees, I will be hitting 6/7 iron or longer on most of the holes.  I don't feel my game translates to longer tees at all.

[Mulligan Jeff]

I play the back tees every now and then, back tees are not tore up like the white tees and I like that also second shot on hole is more challenging. Not bothered by higher score I think it improves my game overall.

[Strandly]

I play the back tees every now and then, back tees are not tore up like the white tees and I like that also second shot on hole is more challenging. Not bothered by higher score I think it improves my game overall.

I agree.  I played the back tees alot last year because it forced me to use the longer irons.  I remember complaining about how useless my 3 iron seemed to be but it's actually one of my favorite clubs now, I can hit it (or any iron) as consistently as a 9 or a wedge.  Whether to goes where I want is still a little less certain but the contact is good and that's what I'm most concerned about for now.  Anyway, I think playing the back tees would probably be a good experience for anyone from time to time, it helps add perspective to the game.

[natureboy]

I'm always amazed at how I put a little more pressure on myself when I'm "forced" to hit a drive that is longer than normal. It's not like paralysis or anything, but the thought is definitely there that I need to play the hole better than I normally do just to make my normal score.

We have one hole where the cart path from the previous green comes to a T that's in a little valley. To the right is the next fairway heading up a hill, but to the left is a little walk back uphill to an elevated tee. We leave our bags at the T since we have to pass back this way anyway, pull out drivers, and trudge up to the tee. Pass the reds. Keep walking. Pass where the white tees normally are (350ish). Keep going. Crap why am I still walking? Where are the whites today as we get on tip toes? Keep walking. Geez, there they are, up where the blue tees are, and the blues are at the way back spot. Keep walking. Put the tee in the ground. Survey the shot. Crap, now I've gotta play a 390 hole.  I better really get a hold of this drive!

It's been a while since I've played the blues, so you've got me interested in taking a stab at it again to make sure I just have fun with it, relax, and play the shot before me and not think about how it is longer than what I typically face. I'll let you know how it goes. I haven't played much this year, but I'll try to remember to drop back here and let you know how it went.

That's a good point. I often have to remind myself to swing smooth with a longer club in hand and trust the distance will happen.

@rkim291968 that 3-putt % ( 1 per round ~ 6%) is better than 'typical' scratch - nice!

[Aguirre]

Well, let's remember that course ratings and slope ratings are far from perfect.  I'm sure we've all played two courses in close succession where we thought the slope rating for each could have been swapped.

Golfers who play most of their golf at one club notice this a lot, particularly when playing other private clubs in friendly rounds or competitions.  I hear guys say all the time, "Everybody from x club handicap is two shots high."

[Mulligan Jeff]

I agree.  I played the back tees alot last year because it forced me to use the longer irons.  I remember complaining about how useless my 3 iron seemed to be but it's actually one of my favorite clubs now, I can hit it (or any iron) as consistently as a 9 or a wedge.  Whether to goes where I want is still a little less certain :-P  but the contact is good and that's what I'm most concerned about for now.  Anyway, I think playing the back tees would probably be a good experience for anyone from time to time, it helps add perspective to the game.

Thumbs up on that! That's how you turn a weakness into a strength. Playing the back tees is like playing an entirely different course - close to 1000 yards more at the club I play.

[rkim291968]

@rkim291968 that 3-putt % ( 1 per round ~ 6%) is better than 'typical' scratch - nice!

For the 1st 4 years of my golf career, I think my practice ratio average was 33/33/33 .  Now, it's 75/20/5.

Back to the topic, playing from a tournament tee (longer tee) made me a better player, no doubt.   But I enjoy playing from shorter tee.  It's more relaxing and fun.   If it is not for the club tournaments, I will probably play from the shorter tee a lot more.   My club is not big enough to have different flights playing from different tees.   If they ever do, I will likely do well in tournaments .

[14ledo81]

But I enjoy playing from shorter tee.  It's more relaxing and fun.

Same here.