Multiple Infractions

[RickK]

Here is my take on this.  If in fact I was in this situation and didn't mind losing to someone playing fast with the rules, I may have taken the same path as the OP in the interest of minimizing any discomfort for the whole group.  However, at the end of play I would have taken him aside and told him that he had made numerous rules breaches during the round, and if he intended to continue playing competitions, he needed to get more familiar with the rules.  I would have enumerated his failures that day, and if he questioned any of them, I have my rule book (or rules app on my phone) handy to show them to him, and I'd make it plain that I was trying to keep peace by not pushing the issue that day, but that I would have to protect the field if it happened in the future.  Also that not everyone would be as easy about it as I was being.

He definitely needs to be counseled on his actions.  If he got huffy with me and didn't take it as friendly advice, then I would be forced to take the issue to the committee regardless of the bad feelings that might result.

I've been in similar circumstances a few times when playing a men's club competition with someone new to tournament golf, and if I observed them seeming to be a bit loose with a procedure during play, I would bring it up immediately.  I never had anyone take it the wrong way.  I think that this was in part because at the new member orientation each spring, they are informed that play is by the rules of golf (and each one is given a rule book and club hard card as part of their membership package), so there is no reason to be surprised when I mention it.  I usually get thanked for helping them out, partly because I also make a point of trying to step in proactively and prevent them from making a mistake, rather than sitting quietly by until they have passed the point of no return.

Often times, it is just a matter of how you come across to someone when you point out a possible rules infraction.  I see people too often come off with a condescending attitude and the player gets riled up and then it gets ugly.  In the OPs example, the guy who asked what club the other one had hit.  I prefer to simply look at both of them and say "you can't ask that question...it is against the Rules of Golf".  Often times, they simply do not know.  But, if I said "Hey, that is a 2 stroke penalty for asking/giving advice"...you suddenly have made an enemy and be prepared for what might come next.

[ColinL]

But just so you know, there is never a situation in the rules of golf where you are able to "find both" and then decide what to do.

You might want to look at Decision 27/11

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-27,d27-11

Additionally, look at Decision 27-2c/1.5 where although one ball is not found, you do have a choice on the basis of  knowing where and how one ball is lying and where you would be dropping the substituted one.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-27,d27-2c-1.5

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

You might want to look at Decision 27/11 [URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-27,d27-11]http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-27,d27-11[/URL] Additionally, look at Decision 27-2c/1.5 where although one ball is not found, you do have a choice on the basis of  knowing where and how one ball is lying and where you would be dropping the substituted one. [URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-27,d27-2c-1.5]http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-27,d27-2c-1.5[/URL]

Lol. Ok. So aside from the rare instance that a player can not distinguish his provisional ball from his original ball (there should be a penalty for that), you aren't allowed to find two balls and decide which one to play. Part of the rules of golf are specifically set up that way so a player can't get the choice to better his position by selecting one ball over the other.

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

No, you only have to notify anyone if you are playing a provisional.  If you re-tee without declaring a provisional then this new ball is in play and your re-tee is your third shot.  Where or whatever happened to that first ball is completely irrelevant.  Rule 27-2.

Look, with all due respect, what I said was true and your own statement supports what I said. "you have to notify the marker or competitor, you cant just hit one and decide what to do when you find them both." As you pointed out If you re-tee without declaring a provisional then this new ball is in play and your re-tee is your third shot. Exactly, you can't just choose when you find them both. You've already "chosen" by hitting a second ball with which you are now laying 3, becuase you didn't notify your marker or competitor that you were hitting a provisional ball.

I think you have lost the context.  After being informed by @MyrtleBeachGolf that they guy didn't hit a provisional, (because he couldn't since you cannot hit a provisional for a ball lost in a hazard) , you THEN made the comment about having to notify the marker.  And THAT statement is what I was correcting because once you aren't talking about a provisional, no notifying is necessary.  And in the instant case there is no deciding which ball to take.  As soon as the player re-tees without declaring a provisional the original ball is abandoned, so there is no issue of a choice between the original ball and the re-teed ball. It isn't as if he has, or had, a choice between playing the re-teed ball or continuing to proceed with the original ball under the relief rules for hazards.

In your description of this one hole it seems as if, wittingly or unwittingly, the guy followed the rules pretty much exactly.  Your confusion arose because you assumed that was a provisional when it wasn't.  And then continuing to think there should have been some kind of announcement when it was pointed out it wasn't.  No assumptions or inferences are needed.  No chices of which shit to choose and play.  Rule 27-1 says that at any time you can replay a shot at a penalty of stroke and distance.  27-2 gives some special rules for the special case of a provisional.  27-2 has a notification provision, 27-1 doesn't.  The guy (again, wittingly or unwittingly) was operating under 27-1 and you mistakenly assumed he was operating under 27-2.  It is an easy mistake to make and one that has been voiced here in the past.

It is no big deal, I was trying to be helpful, not give you a hard time.  No need to get defensive.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinL

You might want to look at Decision 27/11

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-27,d27-11

Additionally, look at Decision 27-2c/1.5 where although one ball is not found, you do have a choice on the basis of  knowing where and how one ball is lying and where you would be dropping the substituted one.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-27,d27-2c-1.5

Lol. Ok. So aside from the rare instance that a player can not distinguish his provisional ball from his original ball (there should be a penalty for that), you aren't allowed to find two balls and decide which one to play. Part of the rules of golf are specifically set up that way so a player can't get the choice to better his position by selecting one ball over the other.

Actually there is a sort of a penalty for it.  If both balls are found in the same area but can't be distinguished from each other, then the player selects one and plays it as the provisional ball, so you end up with the stroke and distance penalty even though it is clear that you have found both the original and the provisional ball.

Decision 27/11 (Situation 4):

27/11

Provisional Ball Not Distinguishable from Original Ball

A player entitled to play a provisional ball from the tee plays it into the same area as his original ball. The balls have identical markings and the player cannot distinguish between them. Following are various situations and the solutions, which are based on equity (Rule 1-4), when the above circumstances exist and one or both of the balls are found within a search of five minutes....

Situation 4:Both balls are found in bounds, whether in a playable or an unplayable lie, and (1) one ball is in a water hazard and the other is not or (2) both balls lie through the green or in a bunker.

Solution 4:One could argue that both balls are lost. However, it would be inequitable to require the player to return to the tee, playing 5, when the player has found both balls but does not know which is the original and which the provisional. Accordingly, the player must select one of the balls, treat it as his provisional ball and abandon the other.

[jsgolfer]

Here's one that happened in a tournament I was playing in recently.  We are on  a par 5, red stakes both sides of the fairway.  However on the right side of the fairway, the red stakes are only around a small section of wetlands.

I'm playing in a fourball tournament and the guy in the opposing twosome, hits his ball into the right side of the woods, into the hazard.  I'm on the left side of the fairway against the hazard but not in.  I chip my ball back out to the fairway and start to walk towards my cart.  The other player finds his ball in the hazard but doesn' notice the red stakes, he starts moving sticks, twigs and other stuff while I'm walking over.  Before I get there he takes probably 4 practice swings.  I've lost count know of how many infractions he has done.  Luckily he had a partner so his score didn't count, I walk up to him and say, you realize you're in a hazard.  He looks around and goes oh?  We get to the green, he took an 8 as his partner made a 7, but what should his actual score have been?

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Actually there is a sort of a penalty for it.  If both balls are found in the same area but can't be distinguished from each other, then the player selects one and plays it as the provisional ball, so you end up with the stroke and distance penalty even though it is clear that you have found both the original and the provisional ball. Decision 27/11 (Situation 4):

Ahhh. Thank you for that. It makes perfect sense. And although you "technically" get to choose between the 2 balls, you are actually playing the provisional 'stroke' either way. Which goes back to my point that you don't really ever get to "find both balls and choose between the two".

[ColinL]

Ahhh. Thank you for that. It makes perfect sense.

And although you "technically" get to choose between the 2 balls, you are actually playing the provisional 'stroke' either way. Which goes back to my point that you don't really ever get to "find both balls and choose between the two".

I  referred you to those two situations in which unusually, a player gets a choice of playing one or other of two balls (and that is the choice when your ball is not found in GUR and you have played a provisional) simply in order to be helpful rather than for the sake of  contradicting you.  But if you must wriggle in order to prove you were somehow right, then I will make it a plain contradiction. You were wrong. You do get to choose between two balls when you cannot distinguish between your provisional and your orginal ball.  Nothing "technical" about it (a word that should be banned from all rules discussions!).  Think about it.  You are looking at the two balls and deciding which to play.  Whichever you choose will count as your provisional, but one is lying in a hole on a slope that will put your ball above your feet and the other is lying nicely on short grass on level ground.   That is a pretty obvious choice between the two balls you have found and no prizes for guessing which you will play.

I won't go into the other situation in detail, but it is a clearly a choice between two balls that will be made in the knowledge of what kind of lie one has and the likely lie the other will have when dropped.  Not quite two balls "found" but a close enough parallel I think, to be relevant.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

I  referred you to those two situations in which unusually, a player gets a choice of playing one or other of two balls (and that is the choice when your ball is not found in GUR and you have played a provisional) simply in order to be helpful rather than for the sake of  contradicting you.  But if you must wriggle in order to prove you were somehow right, then I will make it a plain contradiction. You were wrong. You do get to choose between two balls when you cannot distinguish between your provisional and your orginal ball.  Nothing "technical" about it (a word that should be banned from all rules discussions!).  Think about it.  You are looking at the two balls and deciding which to play.  Whichever you choose will count as your provisional, but one is lying in a hole on a slope that will put your ball above your feet and the other is lying nicely on short grass on level ground.   That is a pretty obvious choice between the two balls you have found and no prizes for guessing which you will play. I won't go into the other situation in detail, but it is a clearly a choice between two balls that will be made in the knowledge of what kind of lie one has and the likely lie the other will have when dropped.  Not quite two balls "found" but a close enough parallel I think, to be relevant.

Both very rare and unusual situations no doubt. A) you have to be somewhat of an asshat to play a provisional with the exact same number and markings as your original ball and not be able to tell the difference between the 2. B) You have in fact explained the one and only rare situation where you get to chose between 2 balls, however, the benefit is limited, considering no matter which you choose, a penalty of S&D; has already been added. And yes, although you did provide an unusual example, and were correct, it was quite a ways off topic from our original discussion. The GUR example is moot, because in that decision you don't even find 2 balls.

[ColinL]

Ah well, I was only intending to be helpfully informative in the first place.

[iacas]

Both very rare and unusual situations no doubt. A) you have to be somewhat of an asshat to play a provisional with the exact same number and markings as your original ball and not be able to tell the difference between the 2.

B) You have in fact explained the one and only rare situation where you get to chose between 2 balls, however, the benefit is limited, considering no matter which you choose, a penalty of S&D; has already been added.

And yes, although you did provide an unusual example, and were correct, it was quite a ways off topic from our original discussion.

I agree with this.

Also agree: let's move on and get back to the actual topic.

[majorjongles]

Yikes too many infractions to count.a real bugbear of mine is lads who have no interest in learning the rules and post scores in comps and if at some future date their rule breaches come to light their saved by the rules Rule 34-1 A penalty of Dq can not be imposed on a player after a competition has closed,if they where unaware they breached a rule.

[luu5]

Yikes too many infractions to count.a real bugbear of mine is lads who have no interest in learning the rules and post scores in comps and if at some future date their rule breaches come to light their saved by the rules

Rule 34-1

A penalty of Dq can not be imposed on a player after a competition has closed,if they where unaware they breached a rule.

Now you are reading the 34-1 wrongly. It let's you off the hook only, if you did not know you breached the rule. It does not let you off the hook if you do not know the rules. So if you touch the sand in the bunker and after competition has closed someone asks if you touched the sand. If you say yes, but I did not know it was against the rules, you will be DQ'd anyway as your score on a hole was too low.

Rule 6-1 says players are responsible of knowing the rules.

[ColinL]

Now you are reading the 34-1 wrongly. It let's you off the hook only, if you did not know you breached the rule. It does not let you off the hook if you do not know the rules. So if you touch the sand in the bunker and after competition has closed someone asks if you touched the sand. If you say yes, but I did not know it was against the rules, you will be DQ'd anyway as your score on a hole was too low.

Rule 6-1 says players are responsible of knowing the rules.

If a player fails to include a penalty because he did not know he had incurred that penalty, he cannot be disqualified if the circumstances only come to light after the close of the competition.  He can only be disqualified if he knew of the penalty and failed whether deliberately or accidentally to add it to his score for the hole.

The opening statement of Rule 34-1b states that a penalty cannot be added on after the close of competition:

In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed.

As to a disqualification, that can only be imposed after the close of competition for returning a score at a hole lower than actually taken if the player knew he had incurred  a penalty and failed for whatever reason to include it.  Your player who touched the sand did not know he had incurred a penalty. On what grounds would you disqualify him?

See Decision 34-1b/1

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-34,d34-1b-1

[luu5]

As to a disqualification, that can only be imposed after the close of competition for returning a score at a hole lower than actually taken if the player knew he had incurred  a penalty and failed for whatever reason to include it.  Your player who touched the sand did not know he had incurred a penalty. On what grounds would you disqualify him?

See Decision 34-1b/1

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-34,d34-1b-1

For being ignorant of rules...

I guess I was wrong.

[bigwave916]

I had the pleasure of being paired with the same guy for both days of a 36 hole tournament this weekend. He had no real breach of the rules of golf, but I was watching him and we were playing with a friend of mine who is even more strict about any breach of the rules, and he know's what he's talking about when he cites the rules. Mr. Charles ends up in a bunker that is 3/4 full of water and not happy that he had to take a drop in the bunker. He thought he should be allowed to drop outside the bunker. I explained that under the rules he could drop in the bunker away from the water but if he played from outside the bunker that would be taking relief from an unplayable lie and it would cost him a stroke. He chose to hit from the bunker. At the end of the round he offered to buy me a beer and I took the opportunity to explain some of the things I'd observed in the two rounds I'd played with him and I politely told him that he ought to read up on the rules before he goes to Nationals. No sense being DQ'd in a 4 day event after paying a serious amount of money to participate. The guy is hard to read and I don't know if it sunk in, but he acknowledged what I was saying and said he agreed with me. The next day, I'm paired with the guy again and he pulls one way left into an area marked with red stakes, plays a provisional, he and my friend look for the one in the hazard but they didn't find it. Next thing we know the guy is taking practice swing beside his provisional. I told my friend "He knows his first one is in a hazard, right?" He says "I told him he needed to take a drop down there when we were looking for the ball" So he tells the guy the provisional cannot be played. The guy goes down and drops, as he should. It just looks like the guy plays dumb to see what he can get away with. Good news is that though he was leading after the first round he ended up in second to a guy that I know plays by the rules even when no one is looking.

[majorjongles]

The next day, I'm paired with the guy again and he pulls one way left into an area marked with red stakes, plays a provisional, he and my friend look for the one in the hazard but they didn't find it. Next thing we know the guy is taking practice swing beside his provisional. I told my friend "He knows his first one is in a hazard, right?" He says "I told him he needed to take a drop down there when we were looking for the ball" So he tells the guy the provisional cannot be played. The guy goes down and drops, as he should.

Pretty sure you can't play a provisional when a ball has clearly gone into a water hazard or OB.while he may have called a provisional he was by action taking his penalty for a water hazard and his"provisional" was ball in play.he should not have then taken a drop but continued playing his 2nd ball.playing 4.

[bigwave916]

Pretty sure you can't play a provisional when a ball has clearly gone into a water hazard or OB.while he may have called a provisional he was by action taking his penalty for a water hazard and his"provisional" was ball in play.he should not have then taken a drop but continued playing his 2nd ball.playing 4.

Good call there "jongles" If we'd seen the red stakes fromt he tee box, we would have let the guy know there was no need for a provisional.