Killing Endangered Animals for Sport? Good Idea?

[mmoan2]

This dumbass need to find a new damn hobby.

Like golf!

Ditto. Or marathoning, or zip lining, or parachuting, or mountain climbing. People say that their ethics allow them to agree that killing animals for sport  is ok. Fine. Have at it. My ethics allows me to say that if you get off on that, you have a small peen and a psychological problem.

[Valleygolfer]

This whole thing is rather bothersome because of the internal conflict I have with it. These trophy hunters are like Hitler's of nature. I have been around a few that kill everything and just justify it behind conservation. I really have no doubt that he knew every bit of the hunt. The arrogance of these guides and the excitement of murdering an animal overrides sensibility. That being said, where is the line between killing a lion and stepping on a bug just because it is there? A life is a life. I am okay with hunting as long as it is used for food but then again every living animal dies and is used for food by some other animal...

Do I think he should make the decision to end the lion's life, not really. Morality and legality are too intertwined lately... So a government entity says it is fine so you are morally off the hook?

I am not saying I am better than any other person out there, I live by my morality and have myself believing it is the "right way" but who's to say I am not way off either. I eat meat, would hunt again if required, walk bugs out the door instead of squashing them (unless they are trying to eat me) but something dies everyday to keep me alive but it doesn't have a name unless it was my buddy's cow "moo moo"...

Honestly there are way more humans that need harvesting to make more room for wildlife...

[Golfingdad]

I don't consider hunting wrong.

Neither do I ... and I resent @Gunther for trying to plant that seed several posts ago.

You'll also note that, not knowing, I haven't jumped to any conclusions. Except to say in my first post that the original article didn't indicate that he'd done anything wrong, I've neither defended, nor condemned the hunt itself. I simply educated some people who know little or nothing about hunting other than what they're reading here.

And that is commendable.  However, all of the stories I've read are pretty consistent. They didn't have a permit, hence it was illegal. Further, they did shady things like lure it off the reservation with a dead animal strapped to a vehicle and didn't kill it for 40 hours after they wounded it.

If the hunt was legal, he has nothing to "take responsibility" for.

I see no contradiction at all in my statements. Quite the opposite. I remain consistent.

I disagree here.  In the hunting case, it's about the legality.  In the window case, you clearly say the law isn't relevant to you.

[rkim291968]

Legally, he may not have done anything wrong.   But his two guides are in legal trouble.    As their legal system unpeals things, hopefully, we'd know if the dentist is also in legal trouble or not.  Most of us have convicted him already in our mind.   But to me, this is besides the point.   Lion, Rhinos, Tigers, ..., should not be hunted except for controlling population or protecting local villages, etc..   This incident caused a global outrage and hopefully, things will change.   In that sense, even the dentist may be helping the cause here ... what irony.

[Hatchman]

Ditto. Or marathoning, or zip lining, or parachuting, or mountain climbing. People say that their ethics allow them to agree that killing animals for sport  is ok. Fine. Have at it. My ethics allows me to say that if you get off on that, you have a small peen and a psychological problem.

Palmer only interested in Trophy hunts per N.Y. Times. Attributed to 45 records. Also has a fishing violation if interested as it speaks to his character. A poacher now with possible multiple infractions as noted below. No simpathy from me. Plus he can't golf, as self stated. "As the 2009 season approached, Walter J. Palmer, a dentist in his late 40s from Eden Prairie, Minn., paid $45,000 for a tag at an auction to finance preservation of the elk habitat. Palmer, said to be capable of skewering a playing card from 100 yards with his compound bow, has cultivated a purist’s reputation for his disinclination to carry firearms as backup. Learning to shoot at age 5, he has slain all but one of the animals recognized by Pope and Young. “I don’t have a golf game,” Palmer said. As the season began, Palmer was completing a year of probation. In 2008, court records show, he pleaded guilty to making a false statement to federal wildlife officials concerning the exact location of the slaying of a black bear during a guided hunt in Wisconsin. In his sentencing order, prosecutors had specifically agreed that the “defendant shall be permitted to possess archery equipment for lawful sporting purposes.”

[David in FL]

Neither do I ... and I resent @Gunther for trying to plant that seed several posts ago. And that is commendable.  However, all of the stories I've read are pretty consistent.  [URL=http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/07/28/minnesota-dentist-walter-james-palmer-cecil-lion-africa/30785881/]They didn't have a permit, hence it was illegal.[/URL]  Further, they did shady things like lure it off the reservation with a dead animal strapped to a vehicle and didn't kill it for 40 hours after they wounded it. I disagree here.  In the hunting case, it's about the legality.  In the window case, you clearly say the law isn't relevant to you.

There's nothing shady about hunting adjacent to a reservation, as I discussed above. As I also noted, baiting is a common, legal method of lion hunting. Finally it often takes time to track and kill a wounded animal. It's not good, and no hunter is happy if it happens, but the fact that they actually tracked and finally, humanely killed the wounded lion is a very good, ethical thing. Sadly, some hunters would have given up long before 40 hours and left the animal to suffer. OT, but in the old thread, we were talking about taking responsibility when you physically hurt someone, or physically damaged their property A completely different situation, since nothing like that has happened here. Here, the only question is whether the hunt was conducted legally. If it wasn't, those responsible need to be held accountable. If it was, all that's left is that a wild animal was killed in a legal hunt. While some find that distasteful, that's nothing more than their personal opinion, to which they're entitled.

[Lihu]

Obama Administration Intervening - partial quote

"Rep. Betty McCollum, a Minnesota Democrat, is calling on U.S. officials to probe Cecil's killing.

"To bait and kill a threatened animal, like this African lion, for sport cannot be called hunting, but rather a disgraceful display of callous cruelty. For those of us committed to ending poaching of iconic African species I strongly believe the U.S. Attorneys' Office and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service should investigate whether U.S. laws were violated related to conspiracy, bribery of foreign officials, and the illegal hunting of a protected species or animal," McCollum said in a statement.

According to multiple press accounts, Palmer lured Cecil out of Hwange National Park by strapping a dead animal to a car as bait, and he shot the lion with a crossbow. The hunting party then tracked the wounded Cecil for 40 hours until Palmer killed the lion with a gun and beheaded him."

Need I say more. Not his first time.

BLOOMINGTON, Minn. -- An avid Minnesota hunter accused of illegally killing a protected lion in Zimbabwe has a felony on his record related to shooting a black bear in Wisconsin, according to federal court records.

Walter Palmer, 55, of the Minneapolis suburb of Eden Prairie, pleaded guilty in 2008 to making false statements to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service about a black bear he fatally shot in western Wisconsin. Palmer had a permit to hunt but shot the animal outside the authorized zone in 2006, then tried to pass it off as being killed elsewhere, according to court documents.

He was given one year probation and fined nearly $3,000.

I really hope that this display of moronic behavior does not reflect upon the rest of the hunters. In short Walter Palmer is moron, in fact, I can't figure out how he got his dental degree.

[misty_mountainhop]

Palmer only interested in Trophy hunts per N.Y. Times. Attributed to 45 records. Also has a fishing violation if interested as it speaks to his character. A poacher now with possible multiple infractions as noted below. No simpathy from me. Plus he can't golf, as self stated.

"As the 2009 season approached, Walter J. Palmer, a dentist in his late 40s from Eden Prairie, Minn., paid $45,000 for a tag at an auction to finance preservation of the elk habitat. Palmer, said to be capable (in his dreams!!!) of skewering a playing card from 100 yards with his compound bow, has cultivated a purist’s reputation for his disinclination to carry firearms as backup. Learning to shoot at age 5, he has slain all but one of the animals recognized by Pope and Young.

“I don’t have a golf game,” Palmer said.

As the season began, Palmer was completing a year of probation. In 2008, court records show, he pleaded guilty to making a false statement to federal wildlife officials concerning the exact location of the slaying of a black bear during a guided hunt in Wisconsin. In his sentencing order, prosecutors had specifically agreed that the “defendant shall be permitted to possess archery equipment for lawful sporting purposes.”

Replaced the missing bit the NY Times author left out...

[rkim291968]

@Lihu resident archer) can tell us how possible it is to hit a playing card from 100 yards out.   That seems to be an Olympic level athlete accuracy.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatchman

Palmer only interested in Trophy hunts per N.Y. Times. Attributed to 45 records. Also has a fishing violation if interested as it speaks to his character. A poacher now with possible multiple infractions as noted below. No simpathy from me. Plus he can't golf, as self stated.

"As the 2009 season approached, Walter J. Palmer, a dentist in his late 40s from Eden Prairie, Minn., paid $45,000 for a tag at an auction to finance preservation of the elk habitat. Palmer, said to be capable (in his dreams!!!) of skewering a playing card from 100 yards with his compound bow, has cultivated a purist’s reputation for his disinclination to carry firearms as backup. Learning to shoot at age 5, he has slain all but one of the animals recognized by Pope and Young.

“I don’t have a golf game,” Palmer said.

As the season began, Palmer was completing a year of probation. In 2008, court records show, he pleaded guilty to making a false statement to federal wildlife officials concerning the exact location of the slaying of a black bear during a guided hunt in Wisconsin. In his sentencing order, prosecutors had specifically agreed that the “defendant shall be permitted to possess archery equipment for lawful sporting purposes.”

Replaced the missing bit the NY Times author left out...

This is not that difficult with a compound bow. Hitting the kill zone on a lion takes getting really close to it. Basically, you need to get along side it and shoot through the heart and the lungs. That's not easy to do. . .

[14ledo81]

[QUOTE name="RJH999" url="/t/83520/killing-endangered-animals-for-sport-good-idea/54#post_1176996"] This dumbass need to find a new damn hobby. Like golf![/QUOTE] Ditto. Or marathoning, or zip lining, or parachuting, or mountain climbing. People say that their ethics allow them to agree that killing animals for sport  is ok. Fine. Have at it. My ethics allows me to say that if you get off on that, you have a small peen and a psychological problem.

Really? Leaving the small peen out of it (maybe I do..irrelevant) , I don't believe I have a psychological problem because I hunt animals for sport. Like I said before, I do eat the deer I kill. I don't try to pretend it is only about the meat though. If it were, I could get meat other ways at a much lower cost.

[Abu3baid]

Really? Leaving the small peen out of it (maybe I do..irrelevant) , I don't believe I have a psychological problem because I hunt animals for sport. Like I said before, I do eat the deer I kill. I don't try to pretend it is only about the meat though. If it were, I could get meat other ways at a much lower cost.

True, but the fact is that you are benefiting from your hunt one way or another.. Even if it wasn't the primary reason you hunt.. Heck, a natural disaster could hit and you would be able to secure food for your family if needed right? This is much different than hunting to only hang a head on the wall or fish to put a shark tooth around the neck or what ever it is they do..

[14ledo81]

[quote name="14ledo81" url="/t/83520/killing-endangered-animals-for-sport-good-idea/80_10#post_1177171"] Really? Leaving the small peen out of it (maybe I do..irrelevant) , I don't believe I have a psychological problem because I hunt animals for sport. Like I said before, I do eat the deer I kill. I don't try to pretend it is only about the meat though. If it were, I could get meat other ways at a much lower cost.

True, but the fact is that you are benefiting from your hunt one way or another.. Even if it wasn't the primary reason you hunt.. Heck, a natural disaster could hit and you would be able to secure food for your family if needed right? This is much different than hunting to only hang a head on the wall or fish to put a shark tooth around the neck or what ever it is they do..[/quote] What if I am hunting for a large buck (for the antlers). I give away the meat because I don't want it, and will not waste it. Is that acceptable?

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu3baid

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

Really?

Leaving the small peen out of it (maybe I do..irrelevant) , I don't believe I have a psychological problem because I hunt animals for sport.

Like I said before, I do eat the deer I kill. I don't try to pretend it is only about the meat though. If it were, I could get meat other ways at a much lower cost.

True, but the fact is that you are benefiting from your hunt one way or another.. Even if it wasn't the primary reason you hunt.. Heck, a natural disaster could hit and you would be able to secure food for your family if needed right?

This is much different than hunting to only hang a head on the wall or fish to put a shark tooth around the neck or what ever it is they do..

What if I am hunting for a large buck (for the antlers). I give away the meat because I don't want it, and will not waste it. Is that acceptable?

I'd say this was very charitable. . .

A friend of mine does this, he usually takes # per year and has a garage full of trophies of the ones he keeps. He also gives/sells some of the trophies.

[Abu3baid]

What if I am hunting for a large buck (for the antlers). I give away the meat because I don't want it, and will not waste it. Is that acceptable?

Of course it is.. Another important distinction is that there aren't 20k -25k Deers in the world. [quote name="Lihu" url="/t/83520/killing-endangered-animals-for-sport-good-idea/80_10#post_1177202"] I'd say this was very charitable. . . A friend of mine does this, he usually takes # per year and has a garage full of trophies of the ones he keeps. He also gives/sells some of the trophies. [/quote] Great!

[mmoan2]

Really?

Leaving the small peen out of it (maybe I do..irrelevant) , I don't believe I have a psychological problem because I hunt animals for sport.

Like I said before, I do eat the deer I kill. I don't try to pretend it is only about the meat though. If it were, I could get meat other ways at a much lower cost.

Got a little carried away with the rhetoric because I feel strongly about this topic. Sport hunting for deer where you eat the meat is far different. Killing a lion, cutting off its head, skinning it, and leaving the carcass to rot is a sign of a mental disorder in my opinion. I seriously believe that. Maybe not on par with paranoid schizophrenia, but truly. In the 21st century, with the massive information about how "big game" are becoming rapidly extinct, there's no reason to get your kicks out of killing animals for pure sport. Even if lions are not currently endangered, rhinos, certain elephants, jaguars, gorillas, etc. all are. It won't be long for lions. If we are to embrace human evolution, it runs the gamut. There are myriad ways to get excitement in the 21st century that don't involve endangering the existence of beautiful animals. I don't apologize for my position and don't care if others think I'm a jerk for it. Am I a vegan? No, but I don't eat meat far as often as I once did after learning about the meat industry. I apologize personally to you, sir, but I hope I have inspired others to think about this topic a bit more.

[Hatchman]

This is not that difficult with a compound bow. Hitting the kill zone on a lion takes getting really close to it. Basically, you need to get along side it and shoot through the heart and the lungs. That's not easy to do. . .

I like the edit about "in his dreams" too. But further referencing that California Tule article about his tactic of "Fair Game" needed for world record submission, and your observation of needing to get close, make me doubt that even occurred. Growing up 30 minutes from Grizley Island where this bull was taken and with a small herd roaming next to our town on Govt I DONT believe you can get that close to a 800 lb trophy. Oh, but the guides stalked it a few days as reported pushing it out of the preserve during rut season when it was near the does. It was elusive up until then. How in the heck do you think it got that huge? Same pattern, same hunter, I'm not fooled by his omission but after all he's a self admitted dead eye. That's all I'm saying. Hunting (and fishing) is great...illegal hunting, it's mindset, and its tactics I cannot stand. His record is suspect.

[Gunther]

Neither do I ... and I resent @Gunther for trying to plant that seed several posts ago.

I thought I was pretty clear in how I came to that conclusion but you didn't respond to my explanation in context. Why resent me when a simple apology will do?