My Swing (Zooz)

[mvmac]

Am I correct to assume that the hip-motion for the backswing is more of a rotational motion, and the downswing is more of a shift forward motion? I'm trying to conceptualize what it feels like in my head. The drill you told me to do seems like the backswing is a combination of hip rotation and a shift in order to get it away from a a stationary object at my right hip (you said left hip, but do you mean right?).

No slide in the backswing, just turn the hips and that will create the "space" that I mention. Downswing is a combination of the hips moving forward as they rotate.

More on the hips here, check out the Centered Hip thread that was posted.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/83529/my-swing-zooz#post_1177229

Am I correct to assume that the hip-motion for the backswing is more of a rotational motion, and the downswing is more of a shift forward motion? I'm trying to conceptualize what it feels like in my head. The drill you told me to do seems like the backswing is a combination of hip rotation and a shift in order to get it away from a a stationary object at my right hip (you said left hip, but do you mean right?).

Also, my left thumb should be on the left or the right side of the club if it shouldn't be down the middle?

Should look something like this.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/83529/my-swing-zooz#post_1180143

[Zooz]

Just got back from the grass tee range, SO much more helpful and satisfying than hitting off mats. I think I had the best range session I've had in a long time. I've changed my swing a good amount and feel very comfortable with the centered hip turn. I'm hitting all clubs much smoother and getting consistent straight shots with added yardage. The shots that I do mishit are still going straight, just not as far (I've read somewhere that a great player makes sure his mishits are still playable - basically minimizing the range of where they go). I still have to work on a consistent hip turn but I've already seen massive improvements in my ball flight due to it coming around. I was able to take one video today from the back of my swing. Unfortunately I couldn't get one from the side due to logistics, and no one else being there to tape me. I think you can still witness the hip turn which has really helped put my swing path where it should be. If I look back at my previous videos, there is a huge difference in my opinion. This particular 5-iron shot went just under 200 yards but a tad right with a clean hit. Of course there's still a lot to work on, and I understand that. I just try to get a little better each session. Anyone have any advice? What I've been really working on is starting my backswing with the shoulders and hips at the SAME TIME. Conversely, I'm trying to start my downswing with my hips as well. [VIDEO]https://youtu.be/1rYYEXsfkdc[/VIDEO]

[mvmac]

Keep working on the hip turn but the arm swing needs to be shorter. Allow the pivot to "carry" the arms, once the left hip is done turning, the arms should also stop. Makes a lot of the downswing pieces much easier to accomplish.

Add some practice placing a tee or glove in your left armpit to shorten the backswing. Want to make it look like the right pic, not the left pic.

More info on the trail arm.

[Zooz]

Keep working on the hip turn but the arm swing needs to be shorter. Allow the pivot to "carry" the arms, once the left hip is done turning, the arms should also stop. Makes a lot of the downswing pieces much easier to accomplish.

Add some practice placing a tee or glove in your left armpit to shorten the backswing. Want to make it look like the right pic, not the left pic.

More info on the trail arm.

Yah that's one thing I spotted in the video as well, that my backswing was much too far and fully corked. In my head, I guess I think that a longer backswing will give me more power, which it clearly doesnot. So you basically want my backswing to stop where it is on the pic to the right, correct? As well as the left arm tucked in a little more and not "chicken-winging"?

At the very least, can you see any improvements in my swing from what I've changed so far? In my opinion, I think i'm trending in the right direction, solely based on the number of pure shots I hit at the range compared to even just 3 weeks ago.

[mvmac]

Yah that's one thing I spotted in the video as well, that my backswing was much too far and fully corked. In my head, I guess I think that a longer backswing will give me more power, which it clearly doesnot. So you basically want my backswing to stop where it is on the pic to the right, correct? As well as the left arm tucked in a little more and not "chicken-winging"?

Yes.

And it seems better than the earlier swings with the hips. Post a face on swing when you can to confirm.

[Zooz]

Yes.

And it seems better than the earlier swings with the hips. Post a face on swing when you can to confirm.

Shot my best score yet of 84 on the weekend and the swing felt the most consistent I've had it feel, ever. Here are a couple updated videos of my swing. My personal analysis (because I like to see if my swing thoughts match up with experts').

I feel that I'm still going a bit too far with my backswing although it's been shortened a little bit. I also think my left elbow is straying away from my body too much, not sure how it is affecting my swing because I'm not really hooking or slicing balls very often. I'd say 8 or 9/10 iron shots on the range are going straight, and a couple of these have a tiny tiny fade. I will keep working on keeping the rear arm inside my body with the "object in the armpit" drill.

All of that being said, I still think I'm comfortable in getting the club in the right slot on the downswing and where it should be at the point of impact. I'm solely judging this on the result of the shot and how it feels (classic buttery feel). Looking for any type of advice I can improve on. Thanks in advance!

[Zooz]

I apologize but I'm not sure how to embed youtube videos on the new platform...

Anywho, Here's a driver swing from a range session last night. I know i'm still coming over the top and a little bit too much on my front foot at impact. My miss is a fade but usually hit about 6 or 7 out of 10 straight (which is a massive improvement from a few weeks ago). I noticed that slowing down my takeaway and really concentrating on starting my downswing with my hips to be the main contributors. Anyone have any thoughts on how I can get my swing on a better plane from the get-go?

 

Edited October 16, 2015 by mvmac
video

[Golfingdad]

Am I correct to assume that the hip-motion for the backswing is more of a rotational motion, and the downswing is more of a shift forward motion? I'm trying to conceptualize what it feels like in my head.

I know the feeling - going from conceptualization to implementation is really, really difficult.  This is because, as is often said here, "feel isn't real."  I can try and steepen my swing or bow my left wrist while whacking balls on the driving range till the cows come home and still see zero progress.  Often times, no matter how different it may feel, it won't be different at all.

My recommendation here (and this is general, not just for the specific hip motion question - it'll work for a lot of changes) is to find yourself a space in your house where you can take swings (no speed, and really no club even, necessary) in front of either a mirror, or a window where you can see your reflection.

What this will allow is for you to manipulate yourself into the position @mvmac or whoever else has recommended for a certain point in the swing and then figure out exactly how that feels to you.  So for the hip issue, for example, look at one of his videos and then freeze it at the top of the backswing then just, first try to simply get directly into that position to feel it.  Once you think you have that, then start going very slowly from setup (also make sure you're matching Mike recommended setup position as well :)) to that position.  (Something that Mike or Erik or others will occasionally refer to on here as "mapping.")

You can make a ton of progress doing that kind of stuff at home for 5 minutes a day.

[Mike Boatright]

Work on that grip it's never good to have any finger or thumb vertically down the shaft itt'l restrict your wrist hinge the rest I can't see because your left handed.

[mvmac]

I apologize but I'm not sure how to embed youtube videos on the new platform...

Anywho, Here's a driver swing from a range session last night. I know i'm still coming over the top and a little bit too much on my front foot at impact. My miss is a fade but usually hit about 6 or 7 out of 10 straight (which is a massive improvement from a few weeks ago). I noticed that slowing down my takeaway and really concentrating on starting my downswing with my hips to be the main contributors. Anyone have any thoughts on how I can get my swing on a better plane from the get-go?

For the videos just paste the link into the post, hit return and wait a couple seconds for it to embed.

With the swing, I'd keep an eye on how you practice. Watch your practice swings, you're basically rehearsing all the "bad" moves. Rehearse the good stuff and make a conscious effort to change the picture. 

[Zooz]

I know the feeling - going from conceptualization to implementation is really, really difficult.  This is because, as is often said here, "feel isn't real."  I can try and steepen my swing or bow my left wrist while whacking balls on the driving range till the cows come home and still see zero progress.  Often times, no matter how different it may feel, it won't be different at all.

My recommendation here (and this is general, not just for the specific hip motion question - it'll work for a lot of changes) is to find yourself a space in your house where you can take swings (no speed, and really no club even, necessary) in front of either a mirror, or a window where you can see your reflection.

What this will allow is for you to manipulate yourself into the position @mvmac or whoever else has recommended for a certain point in the swing and then figure out exactly how that feels to you.  So for the hip issue, for example, look at one of his videos and then freeze it at the top of the backswing then just, first try to simply get directly into that position to feel it.  Once you think you have that, then start going very slowly from setup (also make sure you're matching Mike recommended setup position as well :)) to that position.  (Something that Mike or Erik or others will occasionally refer to on here as "mapping.")

You can make a ton of progress doing that kind of stuff at home for 5 minutes a day.

Thanks man I really appreciate it. You're right, conceptualization and implementation are 2 very difficult procedures to pair up. I've finally realized that "feel is not real" and I'm working on really emphasizing what I am actively trying to fix. Some wise words in here and I'll try to insert them into my at-home routine. 

For the videos just paste the link into the post, hit return and wait a couple seconds for it to embed.

With the swing, I'd keep an eye on how you practice. Watch your practice swings, you're basically rehearsing all the "bad" moves. Rehearse the good stuff and make a conscious effort to change the picture. 

I went through the motions to try to replicate the top of the backswing you showed above. It really feels like my left hand should be facing the sky more at the top. Before, it was facing more down at my target, which means it was cocked in a position that made me really come from over the top.

I've heard about guys trying to "feel" the left hand (for a lefty) pull down to the left hip in order to have that inside-out path during the downswing. I'll attempt these fixes on the range and try to get up a couple more videos this weekend. Excited to see the results!

[Zooz]

So I took a bit of a hiatus for the winter months here in Canada but have been out a few times on the course and many more times on the range since January (2-3x.week). I have a video of the down the line view of my 3 wood here. I still think I'm chicken-winging my left arm and I think I need to keep it tighter to my body. I know I should post a side view but that's all I have for now. Any advice on the swing (I apologize for my friend's horizontal recording)?

 

[Golfer2223]

 

@ZoozAs far as the grip it should feel as though the grip is falling into the fingers, not being grabbed at all by the palms. The grip should rest toward the pinky side of the left hand pad, not be going through the crease of the palm. It's not the size of the grip that is simply preference.

I think you will do well with learning from reading and watching, because you're very good at explaining what it feels like from what I read. You are right about all the things you are feeling in the swing, and many of the positions you're seeing. It can take years to understand what causes these positions and feelings. The best way is to look at the fundamentals of the swing, starting with club. The human body was not made for a golf swing, the swing was made for the body, so it should be natural but involve exertion. Look at the face of the club, look at the angle of the shaft. This angle is the way the club is supposed to be at imact, and you want to keep that shape as much as you can in the swing, while winding it up and letting it go. Everyone wants to make golf complicated but really it is simple. It doesn't take a million moves to hit a ball straight. The idea is to elimate the excess, not to add things. Simple is best.

Here's an image that will help your swing:

Pretend at your set up you are holding a heavy bucket of water. To hold this bucket you obviously want your back straight, knees slightly bent, arms hanging not reaching or pulling in. Get in the most athletic position to hold the bucket without injury. You will probably find you have to bend from the hip sockets slightly. Feel relaxed! Now I want you to take this bucket, and without going too far off the ball and keeping your head fairly still, but still relaxed and not stiff, I want you to put the bucket on an imaginary shelf behind you somehwere in line with your body. To do this your going to have to do a few things, you're going to have to rotate your arms, keep your hip socket open and able to rotate, stay relaxed, reach out your arms, maintain connection between body and arms***. Okay this is a lot to worry about, but you don't have to! All you have to do is find the most athletic way possible to bring that bucket to where it needs to go, find the way where you feel the strongest and most supported, and the most solid**. 

Now the easy part. You are going to take the bucket and throw it as far as you can in front of you. So the downswing is designed to make you throw that bucket as far as you can. Right now you are bringing that bucket very far away from you. If the bucket is heavy and full of water, there is no way you would be able to hold on to it, and the bucket and water is going flying for sure. The only way you can throw this thing, is if you keep it close to you and keep everything together, and start getting everything going to the final point. You have to keep that point in mind, but you have to keep everything together. Even if the arms are extended and not bent, they still have to be connected, or the bucket gets too heavy. This is why you're not feeling pressure on the way down, and why your arm is bending at impact. You're swinging like the bucket is empty, and you can throw it wherever you want. Make it heavier in your mind and you're going to limit a lot of extra movement.

You will find the arms don't do much, you will have to use the big muscles, and very importantly rotate your upper body against your hip sockets for support. Do this with weights to get the feel, but remember to keep your back straight and bend at the hips. If you lose the bend in the hips, guess where all the weight goes, you guessed it. Right now you have what's called early extension, where your hips are flying out at the ball at impact. One last thought. It will be a lot easier to throw the bucket if you don't actually rest it on the shelf, just bring it close to the shelf. If you keep the bucket moving on an arch it becomes a lot lighter. Stay in that athletic position and relaxed and throw that bucket!

Edited February 13, 2016 by Golfer2223

[Zooz]

15 hours ago, Golfer2223 said:

 

@ZoozAs far as the grip it should feel as though the grip is falling into the fingers, not being grabbed at all by the palms. The grip should rest toward the pinky side of the left hand pad, not be going through the crease of the palm. It's not the size of the grip that is simply preference.

I think you will do well with learning from reading and watching, because you're very good at explaining what it feels like from what I read. You are right about all the things you are feeling in the swing, and many of the positions you're seeing. It can take years to understand what causes these positions and feelings. The best way is to look at the fundamentals of the swing, starting with club. The human body was not made for a golf swing, the swing was made for the body, so it should be natural but involve exertion. Look at the face of the club, look at the angle of the shaft. This angle is the way the club is supposed to be at imact, and you want to keep that shape as much as you can in the swing, while winding it up and letting it go. Everyone wants to make golf complicated but really it is simple. It doesn't take a million moves to hit a ball straight. The idea is to elimate the excess, not to add things. Simple is best.

Here's an image that will help your swing:

Pretend at your set up you are holding a heavy bucket of water. To hold this bucket you obviously want your back straight, knees slightly bent, arms hanging not reaching or pulling in. Get in the most athletic position to hold the bucket without injury. You will probably find you have to bend from the hip sockets slightly. Feel relaxed! Now I want you to take this bucket, and without going too far off the ball and keeping your head fairly still, but still relaxed and not stiff, I want you to put the bucket on an imaginary shelf behind you somehwere in line with your body. To do this your going to have to do a few things, you're going to have to rotate your arms, keep your hip socket open and able to rotate, stay relaxed, reach out your arms, maintain connection between body and arms***. Okay this is a lot to worry about, but you don't have to! All you have to do is find the most athletic way possible to bring that bucket to where it needs to go, find the way where you feel the strongest and most supported, and the most solid**. 

Now the easy part. You are going to take the bucket and throw it as far as you can in front of you. So the downswing is designed to make you throw that bucket as far as you can. Right now you are bringing that bucket very far away from you. If the bucket is heavy and full of water, there is no way you would be able to hold on to it, and the bucket and water is going flying for sure. The only way you can throw this thing, is if you keep it close to you and keep everything together, and start getting everything going to the final point. You have to keep that point in mind, but you have to keep everything together. Even if the arms are extended and not bent, they still have to be connected, or the bucket gets too heavy. This is why you're not feeling pressure on the way down, and why your arm is bending at impact. You're swinging like the bucket is empty, and you can throw it wherever you want. Make it heavier in your mind and you're going to limit a lot of extra movement.

You will find the arms don't do much, you will have to use the big muscles, and very importantly rotate your upper body against your hip sockets for support. Do this with weights to get the feel, but remember to keep your back straight and bend at the hips. If you lose the bend in the hips, guess where all the weight goes, you guessed it. Right now you have what's called early extension, where your hips are flying out at the ball at impact. One last thought. It will be a lot easier to throw the bucket if you don't actually rest it on the shelf, just bring it close to the shelf. If you keep the bucket moving on an arch it becomes a lot lighter. Stay in that athletic position and relaxed and throw that bucket!

Dude. That was SUCH a solid post, I really appreciate it and I read through it 3x to ensure I was comprehending it the way you intended.

I just got back from the range using the "water bucket" technique and was hitting my irons the most solid I've hit them in a while with a tiny draw. It felt like a pretty big change but instantly had consistency I've never seen in my iron play.

On the other hand, using this technique resulted in my driver slicing more than I used to and not hitting it as square as I used to. I should have got a video but unfortunately I didn't think about it. Anything you can recommend to get that driver in check? Irons are amazing as it is at the moment! 

[Golfer2223]

Glad to hear it bud! The driver is a longer club, so it is not possible to keep it underneath you as much. In golf terms they say it is a wider and slightly flatter swing. Essentially the bucket will swing more around the body, while still being connected. The basic concept is since the face has less loft, and the ball is on a tee, you need more of a sweeping motion. Don't help it or scoop up with the wrists, this can also cause a high slice. Trust the club to get the ball in the air just by contact. The driver sweeps up on the teed ball. The irons can be very descending and still work great. Without video I cannot say how descending of a blow you were achieving. It is very difficult for some people to make the two different swings but I find it can also be very easy. The tough part is understanding that this new upward sweeping swing is still a swing. It is not a lift. It still involves turn, weight transfer, acceleration. Almost all pros teach that you should just adjust your setup for driver as follows, and let the adjustments do the work for you: 

First, it helps a lot if the ball is toward the front of the stance, just inside the heel of the front foot (foot closer to the target). Next you want to tilt your shoulders so the front shoulder is slightly higher and pointing up, to guide the path of the club upwards.

Setting up with your shoulders slightly closed to the target of your feet and minds eye (in your case shoulders pointed a little left of target), can help too. Most importantly everything has to fire a little bit upward, the hips and shoulders. Basically it is like throwing the bucket over an obstacle, the obstacle would be like a small animal. Everything has to aim up a little more (but not fall back). Always complete the swing and weight shift 100%. Remember you can let the longer clubs be a little less underneath you. You will feel with driver as if you are swinging more around the ball as opposed to down into it. Sometimes I have people make the set up adjustments and they lose it during the swing. You have to keep the adjustments until just after impact. The best way is to get an understanding in the mind (as always) of how the club is shaped differently and how best to use it. The pros are very good at having the hands in front of the ball at impact with driver, but swinging upwards as well. This gives the ball more height and less spin. Most amatuers have the hands too far behind the ball, and don't swing up enough. Stay confident with driver and be positive. There are millions of golfers that will tell you they "cannot hit driver."

Many leave it at home, or hit a slice and then say, "see I told you!" Don't be like this. Tell yourself you will be a great driver of the ball once you completely grasp it. People who beat themselves in their head have no chance of hitting a good drive. Always give yourself a chance. Also most people like this have an ingrained descending swing tbat only works with irons. The problem is on windy days the can't shallow out the plane to hit low shots. They certainly can't handle long courses. I think of the driver as my most accurate club. It's such a long club with a big sweet spot I can basically bunt it 200 yards down the fairway if I had to. Don't try to over do it. You will find more joy in hitting a low solid drive that carries 200 and rolls another 50 in the fairway, then one that carries 260 all over the place.

[Zooz]

On 13/02/2016 at 3:15 PM, Golfer2223 said:

Glad to hear it bud! The driver is a longer club, so it is not possible to keep it underneath you as much. In golf terms they say it is a wider and slightly flatter swing. Essentially the bucket will swing more around the body, while still being connected. The basic concept is since the face has less loft, and the ball is on a tee, you need more of a sweeping motion. Don't help it or scoop up with the wrists, this can also cause a high slice. Trust the club to get the ball in the air just by contact. The driver sweeps up on the teed ball. The irons can be very descending and still work great. Without video I cannot say how descending of a blow you were achieving. It is very difficult for some people to make the two different swings but I find it can also be very easy. The tough part is understanding that this new upward sweeping swing is still a swing. It is not a lift. It still involves turn, weight transfer, acceleration. Almost all pros teach that you should just adjust your setup for driver as follows, and let the adjustments do the work for you: 

First, it helps a lot if the ball is toward the front of the stance, just inside the heel of the front foot (foot closer to the target). Next you want to tilt your shoulders so the front shoulder is slightly higher and pointing up, to guide the path of the club upwards.

Setting up with your shoulders slightly closed to the target of your feet and minds eye (in your case shoulders pointed a little left of target), can help too. Most importantly everything has to fire a little bit upward, the hips and shoulders. Basically it is like throwing the bucket over an obstacle, the obstacle would be like a small animal. Everything has to aim up a little more (but not fall back). Always complete the swing and weight shift 100%. Remember you can let the longer clubs be a little less underneath you. You will feel with driver as if you are swinging more around the ball as opposed to down into it. Sometimes I have people make the set up adjustments and they lose it during the swing. You have to keep the adjustments until just after impact. The best way is to get an understanding in the mind (as always) of how the club is shaped differently and how best to use it. The pros are very good at having the hands in front of the ball at impact with driver, but swinging upwards as well. This gives the ball more height and less spin. Most amatuers have the hands too far behind the ball, and don't swing up enough. Stay confident with driver and be positive. There are millions of golfers that will tell you they "cannot hit driver."

Many leave it at home, or hit a slice and then say, "see I told you!" Don't be like this. Tell yourself you will be a great driver of the ball once you completely grasp it. People who beat themselves in their head have no chance of hitting a good drive. Always give yourself a chance. Also most people like this have an ingrained descending swing tbat only works with irons. The problem is on windy days the can't shallow out the plane to hit low shots. They certainly can't handle long courses. I think of the driver as my most accurate club. It's such a long club with a big sweet spot I can basically bunt it 200 yards down the fairway if I had to. Don't try to over do it. You will find more joy in hitting a low solid drive that carries 200 and rolls another 50 in the fairway, then one that carries 260 all over the place.

I don't know what to say man... your descriptions are the most on point I've ever heard or read anywhere, even without a video example. Kudos, brother.

Went to the range again today to implement some of the driver techniques you mentioned. Ecstatic to say that I had the same successes I previously experience with your bucket technique. It seemed like it was an instant fix to hit it straight again. I was definitely coming more over the top with the drier and had to vision it as more around the body and hitting up on the ball. I think what particularly helped me is that the shoulders and hips have to point upwards a bit more.

All that being said, I'm fairly confident with all my clubs at this point. Just need to keep practicing the small pieces you've suggested in this thread until I can consistently replicate it on the course. Thanks again, bud.