The Master how to become a "Professional Golfer" thread?

[ccotenj]

[QUOTE] that's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy though.... the male population as a whole would seem to fit that curve... seems like the great majority of males are somewhere within a few inches of my height (5'11") in either direction....[/QUOTE] We digressed.  I think the point some were making was that hard work alone cannot overcome what one is not born with (talent - physical attributes).

a liitle digression is a good thing... and yes, some of us have been trying to make that point... :-D

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Ben Hogan was a lot smaller (Guessing actually 5'7"?) than everyone else he played against, but because of his talent he was able to beat everyone on the planet.

Gary player is only 5'6" (or shorter) and won majors

Yeah, but to be a PGA tour pro in this century, you can't be 5'6" and be successful unless your 5'6" frame is built like Shrek, with huge wingspan & arms.  I think the shortest PGA tour pro is 5'7" and there aren't too many of them either.   I did see a French guy in Euro tour who is 5'5 or 5'6".   But again, we are talking about very few here.   Most tour pros are about 6' plus or minus few inches.

that's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy though.... the male population as a whole would seem to fit that curve... seems like the great majority of males are somewhere within a few inches of my height (5'11") in either direction....

That's kind of how I feel, and I'm roughly half an inch shorter than you.

I think the main thing is having the talent to hit the ball a long ways with very little relative effort with lots of control. Are there more taller people that fit this description? Possibly, but on the other hand there is short game and the nerves and tenacity of steel aspect as well.

Many shorter people are much tougher than the average person.

[newtogolf]

Talent is the most critical factor, just ask Dan from the Dan Plan.

[mmoan2]

I think it's interesting that no one voted for "the drive to make you the best" thing. I think most people discredit just how important that is. Attempting to make a living as a professional athlete in any sport is a huge risk. Forget the talent - if you don't have an absolute killer instinct and indomitable will, you'll likely never get there. You'll "fall back" on a standard career. Not that it's such a bad thing. We all think we want to be professional athletes, but if we really did, maybe we would be instead of talking here about how we don't have the physical traits to do so.

[phillyk]

Ok, so take a 17yr old with good physical attributes, 6ft 1in 180lbs, whatever. He's taken into golf and wants to make a run for a tour, can you tell whether he has this talent already? Can you tell him he shouldn't follow his dreams already or do you have to wait until a certain handicap or age to tell for sure? I guess the real question is how can you measure talent vs hard work? Is there a wall people hit at which they can't get any better? Or what is the line at which we cross from hard work to more talent? It sounds like the consensus is that pros have to have talent. Do PGA players have more talent than Web.com or do they work harder?

[newtogolf]

Ok, so take a 17yr old with good physical attributes, 6ft 1in 180lbs, whatever. He's taken into golf and wants to make a run for a tour, can you tell whether he has this talent already? Can you tell him he shouldn't follow his dreams already or do you have to wait until a certain handicap or age to tell for sure? I guess the real question is how can you measure talent vs hard work? Is there a wall people hit at which they can't get any better? Or what is the line at which we cross from hard work to more talent? It sounds like the consensus is that pros have to have talent. Do PGA players have more talent than Web.com or do they work harder?

If he's only starting out at 17 the odds are against him.  Most 17 years olds that have real potential to make it on Tour are scratch or better golfers.  There are outliers like Zach Johnson but overall that 17 year old has to have a lot of talent and willingness to work hard to make up for the lost time.

[rkim291968]

I think it's interesting that no one voted for "the drive to make you the best" thing. I think most people discredit just how important that is. Attempting to make a living as a professional athlete in any sport is a huge risk. Forget the talent - if you don't have an absolute killer instinct and indomitable will, you'll likely never get there. You'll "fall back" on a standard career. Not that it's such a bad thing. We all think we want to be professional athletes, but if we really did, maybe we would be instead of talking here about how we don't have the physical traits to do so.

I consider the "drive" to make you the best is something you are born with, i.e, part of talent.    I have 3 other siblings.  We grew up in same env. but we have very varying degree of drive.

Ok, so take a 17yr old with good physical attributes, 6ft 1in 180lbs, whatever. He's taken into golf and wants to make a run for a tour, can you tell whether he has this talent already? Can you tell him he shouldn't follow his dreams already or do you have to wait until a certain handicap or age to tell for sure? I guess the real question is how can you measure talent vs hard work? Is there a wall people hit at which they can't get any better? Or what is the line at which we cross from hard work to more talent? It sounds like the consensus is that pros have to have talent. Do PGA players have more talent than Web.com or do they work harder?

I know of only 1 that started at age 18 and made it to PGA tour - Y. E. Yang.   That's probably not even possible in this day and age.

Talent is rather easy to see, not just in sports but in everything we do.  Not everyone can be Hemingway, Mozart, Rembrandt no matter how hard they try.     It didn't take too long to see I don't have talent in many things, including golf.   No amount of practice is going to make me a scratch golfer.   I think deep down inside unless you are fooling yourself, most of us know how much real talent we have on any particular area.

[phillyk]

No amount of practice is going to make me a scratch golfer.

Obviously, age is a major limiting factor in the ability to gain distance and maintain a good fundamental swing.  If your under 50 say, I can't see why ANY golfer with enough hard work and determination can't be scratch.  It doesn't take that much talent to hit the ball 250yds with a driver within a reasonable distance of the fairway.  It doesn't take much talent to have a reasonable chance to get up and down if you miss the green.  It just takes the effort to do so.  You obviously don't care to get that much better.  But, I think if you made the full effort to be scratch, you could do it.  Take lessons, work out, and actually make every shot the best one possible.   But, then again, you have to want to do this.  And that's the important part in all of this.  You have to want to get better to be better.  A mediocre effort isn't gonna do it.  This "want" isn't something that you need to be born with, it is something that rests purely between your ears.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

No amount of practice is going to make me a scratch golfer.

Obviously, age is a major limiting factor in the ability to gain distance and maintain a good fundamental swing.  If your under 50 say, I can't see why ANY golfer with enough hard work and determination can't be scratch.  It doesn't take that much talent to hit the ball 250yds with a driver within a reasonable distance of the fairway.  It doesn't take much talent to have a reasonable chance to get up and down if you miss the green.  It just takes the effort to do so.  You obviously don't care to get that much better.  But, I think if you made the full effort to be scratch, you could do it.  Take lessons, work out, and actually make every shot the best one possible.   But, then again, you have to want to do this.  And that's the important part in all of this.  You have to want to get better to be better.  A mediocre effort isn't gonna do it.  This "want" isn't something that you need to be born with, it is something that rests purely between your ears.

I am over 50, started playing at 48, barely 5'5" ... and my push to improve my game is well documented here if you care to read them.  Once you do that, you can come back to this post and reevaluate what you wrote .    Even to be a scratch golfer, I say one would need some talent.  If you look at the vast majority of golfers who become obsessed with golf, very few ever make it to scratch (well very few even break 80).    You ought to know since you are a scratch golfer.   Almost everyone you play with are lesser golfer than you are, right?

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="rkim291968" url="/t/83913/the-master-how-to-become-a-professional-golfer-thread/36#post_1186965"] No amount of practice is going to make me a scratch golfer. [/QUOTE] Obviously, age is a major limiting factor in the ability to gain distance and maintain a good fundamental swing.  If your under 50 say, I can't see why ANY golfer with enough hard work and determination can't be scratch.  It doesn't take that much talent to hit the ball 250yds with a driver within a reasonable distance of the fairway.  It doesn't take much talent to have a reasonable chance to get up and down if you miss the green.  It just takes the effort to do so.  You obviously don't care to get that much better.  But, I think if you made the full effort to be scratch, you could do it.  Take lessons, work out, and actually make every shot the best one possible.   But, then again, you have to want to do this.  And that's the important part in all of this.  You have to want to get better to be better.  A mediocre effort isn't gonna do it.  This "want" isn't something that you need to be born with, it is something that rests purely between your ears.

Getting drives that are accurate enough and consistent enough to average 250 yards is much harder than hitting some 250+ yard drives. Then you need to hit your irons accurate and consistent enough to hit 12 greens and have the nerves to make half sand saves and most of your scrambles and finally at least half your 6 foot putts. Scratch takes some talent. Obviously, you have enough talent to get to scratch. Not everyone does.

[phillyk]

Getting drives that are accurate enough and consistent enough to average 250 yards is much harder than hitting some 250+ yard drives. Then you need to hit your irons accurate and consistent enough to hit 12 greens and have the nerves to make half sand saves and most of your scrambles and finally at least half your 6 foot putts.

Scratch takes some talent. Obviously, you have enough talent to get to scratch. Not everyone does.

I guess you could say it's my job that wants to see the very best potential in people.  I don't want to settle for less when I work with them.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Getting drives that are accurate enough and consistent enough to average 250 yards is much harder than hitting some 250+ yard drives. Then you need to hit your irons accurate and consistent enough to hit 12 greens and have the nerves to make half sand saves and most of your scrambles and finally at least half your 6 foot putts.

Scratch takes some talent. Obviously, you have enough talent to get to scratch. Not everyone does.

I guess you could say it's my job that wants to see the very best potential in people.  I don't want to settle for less when I work with them.

Sure, and that's great. It's just not a great idea to give people the wrong expectations. More realistic expectations might be "Get rid of the open shoulders at address, or get rid of OTT, etc."?

[Vinsk]

Sure, and that's great. It's just not a great idea to give people the wrong expectations. More realistic expectations might be "Get rid of the open shoulders at address, or get rid of OTT, etc."?

I think it's hard to pin point what exactly the special talent is these pros have. I do think people like Erik, Dave and Mike can watch a young player swing and "just know" if they possess special talent. I did quite well in other sports with average work/practice (excelled in a few) but I've never put so much work into anything like I do golf, and I suck. My "natural swing" is a shank. 100% reliable. So having to feel odd every time I swing a club is difficult to maintain. Some people's "natural swing" is an inside out flush baby draw.

[mmoan2]

I consider the "drive" to make you the best is something you are born with, i.e, part of talent.    I have 3 other siblings.  We grew up in same env. but we have very varying degree of drive.

I know of only 1 that started at age 18 and made it to PGA tour - Y. E. Yang.   That's probably not even possible in this day and age.

Talent is rather easy to see, not just in sports but in everything we do.  Not everyone can be Hemingway, Mozart, Rembrandt no matter how hard they try.     It didn't take too long to see I don't have talent in many things, including golf.   No amount of practice is going to make me a scratch golfer.   I think deep down inside unless you are fooling yourself, most of us know how much real talent we have on any particular area.

I disagree with the first statement. In studying it, I know there's a biological component to obsessive drive, I think your environment and upbringing are far more important. Being the youngest vs. oldest child, being a certain size, your peers, luck of the draw, etc. The myriad factors that go into developing one's "drive" are difficult to point out individually, but collectively they form your identity, especially as a youth when you aren't even aware of how your environment forms your identity.

I agree with your talent statement to a point, but I think you are selling yourself (and "untalented" people everywhere ) short. I think what is missing is that by the time you are old enough to recognize your own talent and actually do something about it, your proclivities have pretty much been set. No one here would have heard of Tiger Woods if it wasn't for Earl Woods. Tiger has natural talent, but is he "the most naturally talented golfer ever?" I think the fact that he putted against Bobe Hope on TV at 3 years of age was a bigger factor. As an 18 handicap who has only been playing for 2 years starting in your 40s, if your parents had you playing golf every day for hours throughout your youth, I guarantee you'd be a scratch golfer. If you quit your job tomorrow and practiced for 3-4 hours a day, played in tournaments, got the best equipment, a coach, and basically put golf "in your blood" for 10 years, as long as your body held up, you could probably be a scratch golfer. I've known Olympic athletes who were absolutely lost when they played pickup basketball or football with me. Even their basic coordination didn't stand out necessarily.

[rkim291968]

Yeah, @mmoan2 nts.   I still say people like Tiger, Kobe, and some of us are born with obsessive drive DNA that average Joe lacks.

-Joe

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Sure, and that's great. It's just not a great idea to give people the wrong expectations. More realistic expectations might be "Get rid of the open shoulders at address, or get rid of OTT, etc."?

I think it's hard to pin point what exactly the special talent is these pros have. I do think people like Erik, Dave and Mike can watch a young player swing and "just know" if they possess special talent. I did quite well in other sports with average work/practice (excelled in a few) but I've never put so much work into anything like I do golf, and I suck. My "natural swing" is a shank. 100% reliable. So having to feel odd every time I swing a club is difficult to maintain. Some people's "natural swing" is an inside out flush baby draw.

True, there's no way someone like me can see talent until it's demonstrated. Talent scouts are pretty amazing from that standpoint. . .

[ccotenj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinsk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Sure, and that's great. It's just not a great idea to give people the wrong expectations. More realistic expectations might be "Get rid of the open shoulders at address, or get rid of OTT, etc."?

I think it's hard to pin point what exactly the special talent is these pros have. I do think people like Erik, Dave and Mike can watch a young player swing and "just know" if they possess special talent. I did quite well in other sports with average work/practice (excelled in a few) but I've never put so much work into anything like I do golf, and I suck. My "natural swing" is a shank. 100% reliable. So having to feel odd every time I swing a club is difficult to maintain. Some people's "natural swing" is an inside out flush baby draw.

True, there's no way someone like me can see talent until it's demonstrated. Talent scouts are pretty amazing from that standpoint. . .

yes, they are...   "sports academies" in various countries in the world prove this to be true...   they identify humans with an "ability" at a very young age...  do a lot of them "wash out"?  sure, but when you look at the success that different countries have had in different sports once they put their minds to it (british cycling comes to mind), it seems to work...

[rkim291968]

BTW, I lived through this talent, drive thing as a kid.  Two brothers and I were trained from age 8 - 10 by our dad who was a national team boxing coach (and boxer) for the sole purpose of being a world champion one day.   One had the physical talent but nothing could motivate him (even the whips).   Two others were short on talent despite our zeal.  None of us came even close achieving the goal.   In golf term, I think we got as good as +2 handicap, slightly better than scratch.  We could have been pros, decent ones at that, if we kept at it.   But all 3 of us retired from boxing before age of 23.  We knew we weren't going to make it.   Bottom line - not enough talent and it became pretty apparent once we reached certain competition level.