Drop Zones Beyond the Hazard

[JonMA1]

Sorry in advance for the basic (probably stupid) questions. This has been bugging me for some time so I've finally decided to ask...

My home course has a creek that winds throughout it, as well as several marshes. Most of the holes have a drop zone beyond these hazards.

My VERY limited understanding of the RoG (specifically Rule 28) is that you cannot advance your ball like that if it lands in one of these marshes or a part of the creek. If that's wrong, you can stop reading and please tell me I'm incorrect.

So when I do lose a ball in one of these areas, I either take a drop from the original spot, or drop it in front of the hazard in line with the flight of the lost ball, both options include a penalty stroke. Up until this week, I've never used a drop zone beyond my lost ball.

I have been told I'm losing strokes playing this way. The people who told me this play in this course's leagues. I do not. I'm only interested in playing by the rules (unless pace of play becomes an issue).

1. Is there ever an instance when a drop zone can be used in advance of a lost ball?

2. Are these drop zones created just for the leagues to help speed up the game? If so, what's the correct way to play when I'm by myself and keeping score for handicap purposes?

3. Does this fall under Appendix 1 - Local rules.... ?

For what it's worth, this course has no OOB or water hazard markings.

[newtogolf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonMA1

Sorry in advance for the basic (probably stupid) questions. This has been bugging me for some time so I've finally decided to ask...

My home course has a creek that winds throughout it, as well as several marshes. Most of the holes have a drop zone beyond these hazards.

My VERY limited understanding of the RoG (specifically Rule 28) is that you cannot advance your ball like that if it lands in one of these marshes or a part of the creek. If that's wrong, you can stop reading and please tell me I'm incorrect.

So when I do lose a ball in one of these areas, I either take a drop from the original spot, or drop it in front of the hazard in line with the flight of the lost ball, both options include a penalty stroke. Up until this week, I've never used a drop zone beyond my lost ball.

I have been told I'm losing strokes playing this way. The people who told me this play in this course's leagues. I do not. I'm only interested in playing by the rules (unless pace of play becomes an issue).

1. Is there ever an instance when a drop zone can be used in advance of a lost ball?

2. Are these drop zones created just for the leagues to help speed up the game? If so, what's the correct way to play when I'm by myself and keeping score for handicap purposes?

3. Does this fall under Appendix 1 - Local rules.... ?

For what it's worth, this course has no OOB or water hazard markings.

They way I understand it, drop zones for hazards are handled as local rules.  If there's a drop zone beyond the hazard the local rules would require you play from the drop area, if there isn't a drop zone you follow 26-1 for water hazards

Quote:

Appendix I – Local Rules; Conditions of the Competition

Part A Local Rules

6. Dropping Zones

Establishing special areas on which balls may or must be dropped when it is not feasible or practicable to proceed exactly in conformity with Rule 24-2b or 24-3 (Immovable Obstruction), Rule 25-1b or 25-1c (Abnormal Ground Conditions), Rule 25-3 (Wrong Putting Green), Rule 26-1 (Water Hazards and Lateral Water Hazards) or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable).

[wadesworld]

1)  First, let me clarify something:

Quote:

drop it in front of the hazard in line with the flight of the lost ball

The reference point for taking relief from a hazard is always the last place it crossed the margin of the hazard.  The line of flight does not come into play.  Often they are one and the same if your ball directly enters the hazard.  However, in many cases, they may be different.

2) It certainly is possible a drop zone may be ahead of the place from which you played, or even ahead of where you would have taken relief under 26-1.  Most of the time, you have your choice of using the drop zone, or the normal options under 26-1. While it's not recommended, the local rule establishing the drop zone can be written to require you to use it. So, you'd have to check to be sure. However, that's pretty rare.

3)  A drop zone should never be on the green side of the hazard.  While you will see it at times, it's a case where the course is either ignorant of the requirements of a drop zone, or just don't care.

[Wendy Dominick]

33-8/2

Local Rule Allows Drop on Green Side of Water Hazard When Ball Fails to Clear Hazard

Q.The design of a hole is such that a player must hit the ball about 100 yards in order to carry a water hazard. A Local Rule has been adopted to assist players who cannot drive over the hazard by allowing them to drop a ball, under penalty of two strokes, in a dropping zone that is located across the hazard. Is such a Local Rule authorized?

A.No. Such a Local Rule substantially alters Rule 26-1b as it allows the player to drop a ball on a part of the course (i.e., on the green side of the water hazard) that the Rule would not have permitted him to reach. Furthermore, the penalty for taking relief under the water hazard Rule (Rule 26) is one stroke, and may not be increased to two strokes by a Committee through a Local Rule - see Rule 33-8b .

33-8/3 (Reserved)

[Fourputt]

First of all, line of flight is not one of the option for dropping from a water hazard.  All line of flight is used for is to determine the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard.  That point is your reference point for 2 of the three relief options under Rule 26-1.

There are two options for a regular (yellow) water hazard:

26-1a - replay the stroke from the spot where the ball was last played.

26-1b - Stand so that the reference point is between you and the hole.  You can drop as far back along that line as you  want, always keeping the reference point between you and the hole.

For a lateral water hazard you a third option in addition to the two listed above:

26-1c - Measure a two clublength arc from the reference point.  The arc may not be closer to the hole than the reference point.  You may drop the ball anywhere within that arc.

Here is Rule 26-1:

26-1. Relief for Ball in Water Hazard

It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazardis in the hazard. In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the hazard, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.

If a ball is found in a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in the water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:

a.

Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b.

Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or

c.

As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of thewater hazard equidistant from the hole.

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

As to the dropping zones - the USGA does not condone establishing dropping zones which take the hazard completely out of play.  Ideally, the dropping zone should not advance the ball beyond where it crossed into the hazard, but there may be times when that is deemed impracticable.  From the appendix:

V. Dropping Zones

If the player has interference from a TIO, the Committee may permit or require the use of a dropping zone. If the player uses a dropping zone in taking relief, he must drop the ball in the dropping zone nearest to where his ball originally lay or is deemed to lie under Clause IV (even though the nearest dropping zone may be nearer the hole).

Note: A Committee may make a Local Rule prohibiting the use of a dropping zone that is nearer the hole.

And Decision 33-8/2:

33-8/2

Local Rule Allows Drop on Green Side of Water Hazard When Ball Fails to Clear Hazard

Q.The design of a hole is such that a player must hit the ball about 100 yards in order to carry a water hazard. A Local Rule has been adopted to assist players who cannot drive over the hazard by allowing them to drop a ball, under penalty of two strokes, in a dropping zone that is located across the hazard. Is such a Local Rule authorized?

A.No. Such a Local Rule substantially alters Rule 26-1b as it allows the player to drop a ball on a part of the course (i.e., on the green side of the water hazard) that the Rule would not have permitted him to reach. Furthermore, the penalty for taking relief under the water hazard Rule (Rule 26) is one stroke, and may not be increased to two strokes by a Committee through a Local Rule - see Rule 33-8b.

[JonMA1]

Thank you all.

I now understand about the line of flight being irrelevant. Makes sense.

Since these drop zones are on the green side of the hazards, it sounds like I've done the right thing for the last three years in not using them. Finally used one for the first time recently and had to ask the question.

Man, this is where playing alone (or with people who don't know the rules any better than I do) really hurts. I read through the Rules before posting my question and they seemed a bit ambiguous. But Decision 33-8/2 noted by @Wendy Dominick and @Fourputt clears it up nicely. I'll have to remember to look through that section next time.

[DrvFrShow]

We had a situation where the local rule was: dunk two carry across, drop in the zone behind the green. It was about a 50 yd carry over the hazard and there's a gaping bunker directly on the other side of the hazard adding 10 yds to the carry. Now we had the drop zone changed to be conforming and put at the narrowest point where it measures 36 yds.

****

still I understand the point behind the original drop zone - It was a major psych obstacle, and some people were dunking up to $16 worth of balls in the pond so the course wanted to keep it fun and since balls can run $3-4 each that adds to the cost of the round.

If you're having that much of a psych problem with that hole, buy some used range balls from your driving range and drop those for rehits. They're usually like $10 for 300 balls. Carry 10 of them in your bag, you'll get one across. But seriously in a league if you can't get it across by the second shot, you're probably out of the stroke play competition so just pick up and X the hole, and if in match play you can concede the hole.

[Fourputt]

We had a situation where the local rule was: dunk two carry across, drop in the zone behind the green. It was about a 50 yd carry over the hazard and there's a gaping bunker directly on the other side of the hazard adding 10 yds to the carry. Now we had the drop zone changed to be conforming and put at the narrowest point where it measures 36 yds.

****

still I understand the point behind the original drop zone - It was a major psych obstacle, and some people were dunking up to $16 worth of balls in the pond so the course wanted to keep it fun and since balls can run $3-4 each that adds to the cost of the round.

If you're having that much of a psych problem with that hole, buy some used range balls from your driving range and drop those for rehits. They're usually like $10 for 300 balls. Carry 10 of them in your bag, you'll get one across. But seriously in a league if you can't get it across by the second shot, you're probably out of the stroke play competition so just pick up and X the hole, and if in match play you can concede the hole.

I was going to suggest the same.  If 50 yards is too much carry for a player, he should be using $10 for 15 balls TopFlites.  He's not good enough to get his money's worth from a $4 ball.

[JonMA1]

We had a situation where the local rule was: dunk two carry across, drop in the zone behind the green. It was about a 50 yd carry over the hazard and there's a gaping bunker directly on the other side of the hazard adding 10 yds to the carry. Now we had the drop zone changed to be conforming and put at the narrowest point where it measures 36 yds.

****

still I understand the point behind the original drop zone - It was a major psych obstacle, and some people were dunking up to $16 worth of balls in the pond so the course wanted to keep it fun and since balls can run $3-4 each that adds to the cost of the round.

If you're having that much of a psych problem with that hole, buy some used range balls from your driving range and drop those for rehits. They're usually like $10 for 300 balls. Carry 10 of them in your bag, you'll get one across. But seriously in a league if you can't get it across by the second shot, you're probably out of the stroke play competition so just pick up and X the hole, and if in match play you can concede the hole.

I don't play in tournaments or leagues and have yet to play for money. The courses I play would probably be considered goat trails by many. Some have OOB markings, some do not. If I have a playable lie, I play it. If I hit one into the marsh or creek ravine, it's rarely playable. I often drop at the original spot as opposed to dropping a bit closer in front of the hazard. Chances are, I probably lose more strokes than I gain due to my ignorance of the rules. The only cheating I do is when crowded conditions apply (see Lost Ball Rule is Stupid thread). Even then, I treat the drop as a result of  the provisional I should have taken and I'm playing my 4th shot from there.

I have a pile of scorecards on my desk from this season. Each of them dated and marked as to which tees I played from. At the end of the season, I'll enter them into an unofficial online HI calculator to see what it comes out to.

The point of this long-winded post is that I just want the results to be as legitimate as my knowledge of the rules allows. If I'm knowingly breaking rules, why even bother keeping score. Its not like cheating is going to make me better or help me enjoy the experience more.

The only thing that bothers me is that there is so much disagreement in some of these rules threads between people who know their #$^&, play with others who are knowledgeable and honest, and on courses that have rules committees and where hazards and OOB are marked. What chance do I have of getting it right on the courses I play? Fortunately, my question was answered in no uncertain terms. But there seems to be so many circumstances left up to interpretation.

Even if I never keep a legitimate HI, play against anyone, or brag about a low score, learning the rules and following them just seems important.

I was going to suggest the same.  If 50 yards is too much carry for a player, he should be using $10 for 15 balls TopFlites.  He's not good enough to get his money's worth from a $4 ball.

In the instances I'm describing, it isn't always simply a matter of carrying 50 yards. It all depends from where you're hitting you're approach shot.

In any case, the nice thing about my home course is that there are times when I'm the only one on the course. This allows me time to collect dozens of ProV1's and Callaways that all those "better players" lose in that wimpy 50 yard space. They make really good practice balls that I can hit (and eventually lose) into the fields next to my property.

[DrvFrShow]

You guys don't understand. That 50 yards gets into people's heads. It's mental game. The last time I played that hole with my club everyone laid up and I had a second shot from 175 to the flag that I put on the green, and I said "If I can put that shot on, you can put this on. No one misses. No excuses. It's only 80 yds." Everyone whined. No one missed. I only lay up if need 180 to carry the water.

This is not like a forced carry to an island green.