Religion vs. Atheism Thread

[billchao]

1) I've already shown that the burden of proof is on theists that a God exists and not on atheists to "disprove God." How many examples do I have to give before people understand this? Prove to me that there aren't goblins that come into your house and steal socks from your laundry.

Why? What makes your position superior to the opposing one therefore making the burden of proof on them?

How do you know goblins aren't stealing my socks or gnomes aren't stealing my underwear? Just because you may feel something is ridiculous doesn't make it invalid.

2) most atheists do not demand proof. We are asking for SOME evidence. Just a little evidence.

Again, where is your evidence of nonexistence? What kind of courtroom do you go into where one side has to provide nothing to prove their argument is true?

I think you made a great post and agree with almost all of what you said.  And I certainly don't know all the answers to the above question, but I could venture a guess as to one of them ... it's that so much stuff that we see that is wrong with the world is rooted in religion.  Everything to do with the issues in the Middle East since the dawn of time practically, all terrorism, the gay marriage fight, etc, etc.  A lot of atheists (I imagine) believe that without religion, none of these problems would exist or they'd be not nearly as severe.

There have been lots of wars and death and violence over non-religious reasons, too, and a lot of religious wars were fought by people who were in it for the power and glory. People use or misuse religion for what they will.

[saevel25]

1) you are a Christian, correct? Do you believe Muslims go to heaven even though they do not accept Christ as Lord and Savior? It is extremely relevant to this discussion, actually, because atheists don't believe in any god. You are an atheist to thousands of gods. I'm just an atheist to one more than you.

If you are a Christian then the answer is no. The only way to get into Heaven is if you accept God. Not necessarily Jesus because Jesus even say the top commandment is to love God above all else.

I believe another way is through revelations through the end of days. At the end when Jesus returns, those who are found wanting will be granted eternal salvation. I am kinda guessing on this, but it sounds familiar. I haven't brushed up on my end of days studies lately ;)

Atheist is a lack of a belief in a deity. A theism based religion has a belief in a deity or deities.  You can't be a Theist and an Atheist since being a Theist for one God discredits you from being an Atheist by definition. Even if you don't believe any other god besides the one you worship exists. Atheist definition does not say God, it says Deity. A God is just one defined Deity through out history. So believing in a God does not allow a Theist to be considered an Atheist.

2) again, atheists are not asking for "proof." We are merely asking for a tiny bit of supporting evidence.

Again, why do you care? Why even ask?  I would like to know personally what drives you to require evidence.

You say you have read through the threads, yet you are still making two HUGE mistakes:

1) I've already shown that the burden of proof is on theists that a God exists and not on atheists to "disprove God." How many examples do I have to give before people understand this? Prove to me that there aren't goblins that come into your house and steal socks from your laundry.

2) most atheists do not demand proof. We are asking for SOME evidence. Just a little evidence.

Burden or proof is on anyone who makes a claim on a belief. Again I say you can not denounce a deity, because if you do then the burden of proof shifts to you. If a religious person comes up to you and says, "I believe in god." Then you say, "Prove it." Then that is fine. If you go up to a religious person and say, "God does not exists." Then a religious person has a right to say, "Prove God does not exist."

This is the perpetual problem with this argument since neither side can prove or disprove a deity exists.

Again I ask, why do you need evidence? What drives you to demand evidence? Why do you care?

I think you made a great post and agree with almost all of what you said.  And I certainly don't know all the answers to the above question, but I could venture a guess as to one of them ... it's that so much stuff that we see that is wrong with the world is rooted in religion.  Everything to do with the issues in the Middle East since the dawn of time practically, all terrorism, the gay marriage fight, etc, etc.  A lot of atheists (I imagine) believe that without religion, none of these problems would exist or they'd be not nearly as severe.

I think that is the problem with Atheist. It's not religion that is the problem, it's people.

The Bible clearly says, Thou Shall Not Kill. Yet Popes have wages war against Muslims during the Crusades. It wasn't a religion that started the war, it was an evil person with blind ambition.

People just use religion as an excuse. If religion didn't exist then people would still wage war. Heck Genghis Khan was a Tengrist, but he was also very tolerant of other people's religions. Yet he tried to concur as much land as possible.  It wasn't religion based, it was because he was a war lord.

The roman empire, though polytheists and then monotheists allowed the people they concurred to worship freely. They didn't wage war based on religion. They wages war because they were expansive and wanted more servants, land, and taxes.

Honestly, this notion that the world would be a better place without religion is BS. The world would be a better place without humanity in it if you want to look at the underlying cause of it all.

[Golfingdad]

There have been lots of wars and death and violence over non-religious reasons, too, and a lot of religious wars were fought by people who were in it for the power and glory. People use or misuse religion for what they will.

Certainly.  It's entirely possible that without religion nothing in those arenas would be any different.  I'm just saying that I think that a lot of atheists might believe that it would be.

And to be safe, I'll again repeat my disclaimer that I am not an atheist nor do I know any, so this is just a guess.

EDIT: @saevel25 , I agree with your post too, and the above also applies.

[Pretzel]

If you are a Christian then the answer is no. The only way to get into Heaven is if you accept God. Not necessarily Jesus because Jesus even say the top commandment is to love God above all else.

I would contest this logic only because God in both cases is the same entity, and it's the same with Judaism and Mormonism as well. The primary disagreement (as I see it) between all those religions is what the role of Jesus was and which people were prophets, not who was the big guy up top.

[SavvySwede]

Burden or proof is on anyone who makes a claim on a belief. Again I say you can not denounce a deity, because if you do then the burden of proof shifts to you. If a religious person comes up to you and says, "I believe in god." Then you say, "Prove it." Then that is fine. If you go up to a religious person and say, "God does not exists." Then a religious person has a right to say, "Prove God does not exist."

This is the perpetual problem with this argument since neither side can prove or disprove a deity exists.

Again I ask, why do you need evidence? What drives you to demand evidence? Why do you care?

To be fair, the logic doesn't work symmetrically like that. You can prove something exists, but you can't prove something doesn't exist. @Duff McGee ealize that the other end of this problem makes it equally futile. Funny how we expect to chase down these black swans when we can't even find that little white ball half the time.

[Duff McGee]

And now people are questioning why I care. I don't care. Isn't this a debate? I'm not trying to convert anyone. I know that the only way someone becomes an atheist is by doing it on their own, through research and searching. People seemed to be interested in discussing atheism and religion on the other thread but things kept going off topic so I started this thread.

[SavvySwede]

1.And now people are questioning why I care. I don't care. Isn't this a debate?

I'm not trying to convert anyone. 2. I know that the only way someone becomes an atheist is by doing it on their own, through research and searching.

People seemed to be interested in discussing atheism and religion on the other thread but things kept going off topic so I started this thread.

1. If you didn't care you wouldn't have stated the thread and put so much time into posting to it.

2. Not true. You could've been brought up that way.

[JazzFatCat]

I think you made a great post and agree with almost all of what you said.  And I certainly don't know all the answers to the above question, but I could venture a guess as to one of them ... it's that so much stuff that we see that is wrong with the world is rooted in religion.  Everything to do with the issues in the Middle East since the dawn of time practically, all terrorism, the gay marriage fight, etc, etc.  A lot of atheists (I imagine) believe that without religion, none of these problems would exist or they'd be not nearly as severe.

This is pretty close to my answer on why we atheists feel the need to challenge religious people. People can believe whatever they want but once those people get into positions of power then I start to get nervous.

My understanding of the "prove God doesn't exist" problem is that it is impossible to prove something doesn't exist.

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/146-proving-non-existence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence

[saevel25]

And now people are questioning why I care. I don't care. Isn't this a debate?

I'm not trying to convert anyone. I know that the only way someone becomes an atheist is by doing it on their own, through research and searching.

People seemed to be interested in discussing atheism and religion on the other thread but things kept going off topic so I started this thread.

There isn't really anything to discuss about Atheism versus Theism. They are opposites of each other. The only thing to discuss is why either side even cares.

As an Atheist, since you have first hand experience being one. Why do you require a religious person to show evidence of their beliefs? Honestly, I don't get it. You posted above, just show me a little bit of evidence. I am asking why? I want to know from an Atheist why you want evidence?

1. If you didn't care you wouldn't have stated the thread and put so much time into posting to it.

2. Not true. You could've been brought up that way.

Pretty much this. I do not believe people are inherently religious. You are more likely to be religious if your family is. If your parents are Atheist then I can easily say you do not become a Theist with out self exploration and research to do so.

To be fair, the logic doesn't work symmetrically like that. You can prove something exists, but you can't prove something doesn't exist. @Duff McGee just needs to realize that the other end of this problem makes it equally futile. Funny how we expect to chase down these black swans when we can't even find that little white ball half the time.

True

[JazzFatCat]

This isn't really on topic but I thought it was an interesting con.

Recently in Vancouver there has been a rash of cases where con men told old Korean (I think) ladies that they had a demon following them and the demon was causing their family to have bad luck. The only way to purge the demon was to bless the family's valuables - which the con men then stole. People can believe whatever magical thoughts they want, but if you aren't part of that culture then their beliefs sound weird.

[SavvySwede]

This isn't really on topic but I thought it was an interesting con.

Recently in Vancouver there has been a rash of cases where con men told old Korean (I think) ladies that they had a demon following them and the demon was causing their family to have bad luck. The only way to purge the demon was to bless the family's valuables - which the con men then stole. People can believe whatever magical thoughts they want, but if you aren't part of that culture then their beliefs sound weird.

Plot twist: The con man was the demon.

[JazzFatCat]

Plot twist: The con man was the demon.

LOL.

Or the old ladies were accidental demon factories.

[Duff McGee]

1. If you didn't care you wouldn't have stated the thread and put so much time into posting to it. 2. Not true. You could've been brought up that way.

Come on dude. I said "become atheist." We are all atheists at birth so those people wouldn't "become" atheists. And to answer your question again, I like this discussion. But that doesn't mean I am preaching.

[Pretzel]

This is pretty close to my answer on why we atheists feel the need to challenge religious people. People can believe whatever they want but once those people get into positions of power then I start to get nervous.

So then it's okay for people to believe what they want, except for people in positions of power who then have to believe what you believe?

You just contradicted yourself within the same sentence. As a Christian I don't care if a person in power is Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, Athiest etc. so long as they make good decisions while holding said power.

[Duff McGee]

There isn't really anything to discuss about Atheism versus Theism. They are opposites of each other. The only thing to discuss is why either side even cares.  As an Atheist, since you have first hand experience being one. Why do you require a religious person to show evidence of their beliefs? Honestly, I don't get it. You posted above, just show me a little bit of evidence. I am asking why? I want to know from an Atheist why you want evidence?

Im not trying to be mean but isn't the answer plainly obvious? They are making a claim: God exists Then we say "please show us evidence." Why is that wrong? Do you make any decisions in your life without evidence And if you are merely saying "don't concern yourself with others' beliefs, then I would agree if you are talking about an atheist going door to door to try to convert people, but this is a discussion about these exact topics. There is no discussion without this topic so I'm not sure what you are trying to make happen.

[Pretzel]

Im not trying to be mean but isn't the answer plainly obvious?

They are making a claim: God exists

Then we say "please show us evidence."

Why is that wrong? Do you make any decisions in your life without evidence?

But you just stated yourself you're not making this decision or trying to preach.

That's like me going about my own business purchasing a coffee and you coming up to me to ask, "Why did you purchase that coffee? What evidence do you have that it's better than the coffee I got?"

Now that's not an ideal analogy just because I did stumble upon the thread on my own, but you continued to press the issue after I answered the question in the best way I could.

[saevel25]

Why is that wrong? Do you make any decisions in your life without evidence?

Sure I do.

I know people believe in God. I can not prove or disprove it. Really I don't care if they believe in God or not. For me to ask for evidence is just rude in my opinion. This is a belief they have. A firm belief that shapes who they are as a person. This isn't someone saying, "The golf ball starts where the path is going, not where the face points."

If belief in a God brings them happiness. If a belief in a God brings them peace of mind. If belief in a God lets them have a solid moral compass to be a good person in life then who am I and who are you to challenge that by demanding proof. It does nothing at really. It's an empty question with no value.

[Duff McGee]

But you just stated yourself you're not making this decision or trying to preach.  That's like me going about my own business purchasing a coffee and you coming up to me to ask, "Why did you purchase that coffee? What evidence do you have that it's better than the coffee I got?" Now that's not an ideal analogy just because I did stumble upon the thread on my own, but you continued to press the issue after I answered the question in the best way I could.

This is supposed to be a "debate" thread. You don't have to be here. You are religious. You came to this thread. You believe in God. I ask why......so are you guys just wanting for me to ask the admins to delete it? Because I'm not sure what you want me to do on a discussion thread about religion and atheism.