Tipping Your Golf Instructor

[Jon Hoover]

I'm not going to go into the whole tipping your instructor thing because I don't take lessons. 

That's bologna.  A tip by its very definition is a TIP, not part of the pricing model of a business.  The business model you just described is a restaurant that doesn't have a payroll and doesn't pay its servers. 

In Europe because of their different tax structure and because of a cultural difference that is correct but I never asked about tipping a golf instructor in Europe.  In every single restaurant I have ever been too I have been given a menu with prices, it is agreed upon on the menu.  I will give an example of how this is true:  If I didn't tip in the business model you described, I am guilty of not paying, and the restaurant would be able to call the police and have me arrested for theft.  I have never seen or heard of that happening. 

The new thing is to suggest a tip at the bottom of the receipt.  It is a suggestion and is not part of business model's cost structure.  

That's not true. The hourly rate for a waiter/waitress is typically below minimum wage. They typically make that up and more on tips. You are not just paying for the food since the restaurant still pays them a wage. If that was the case they would not have any wages at all provided by the restaurant. 
 

Unfortunately servers have to tip out to the employer at the end of their shift, even with them being paid like $2.13 a hour based on how much time you took and what you total bill cost if you didn't tip them it could cost more then their hourly wage was, resulting in them paying to serve you if you didn't tip.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Jon Hoover

[pumaAttack]

No you aren't. You're responding to one piece of what was written, and then ignoring further follow-up that clarifies and more precisely explains what was written. Kinda seems to be your thing: latch on to something and then ignore any and all responses to it.

You would not simply by definition. If you give "everyone" "extra special attention" then nobody gets extra special attention. For something to be "extra" or "special" it cannot, by definition, be the same as everyone else.

It's crap because you're twisting or at the very least ignoring things and making disparaging remarks about me, when @mvmac knows for a fact that what you're saying is untrue. Fact to which @mvmac was responding: I do not "work on tips."

You know, there are lots of reasons why you might want to tip for a service.

I have had people here painting the house, or doing other work. You know what? Sometimes I will buy them beer if I know they like a certain kind. I've tipped my cleaning lady when I thought she did an extra nice job, or when she picked up some stuff my daughter left lying around that she didn't have to. It's just being a nice person, and recognizing and rewarding people you feel went above and beyond a little bit.

I've tipped:

• my barber
• my mechanic
• my waiter/waitress
• my cleaning lady
• kids at the golf course
• a performer we hired for a party
• several hotel employees
• etc.

As a general rule, I'm not one to tip like crazy, but I am a nice person who appreciates when people go above and beyond the "service you paid for."

Because it's my 15 minutes to each lunch and they're not paying for my services at that time, but those who have tipped might get a little extra. They might make me eat a bit faster, or something like that.

I'm very generous with my time. I charge for 45 minutes and rarely end a lesson short of 50. That's just how I am, and because I enjoy what I do. But there are limits, of course. If I don't want to go in to work at 7am one day (which would mean leaving the house before 6 if it's at CHQ), I'll tell some students "I can be there at 8" and yet if it's a student who has tipped or taken a good number of lessons, I'll do more to accommodate them.

Simple human nature, and try as you might, this does not paint me as a bad person.

If the service is above and beyond what someone thinks is fair, often they'll tip. Because they're nice people, and maybe your rate, to them, is lower than the value of what they feel they got in return.

I teach golf in Erie, PA, and Chautauqua, NY. My rates are awfully darn low compared to other instructors, even those far less accomplished than I. So a guy summering in CHQ might be used to paying 5x what he pays me, and yet gets a better lesson from me than the guy at his course in Florida… he might tip. Even if he doesn't tip, he's more likely to take more lessons, because he feels he's getting a great value, or to recommend it to other people. Or he's more likely to not worry about the 45 minutes - I had one guy who would come to ask me a few questions or have me take a look at something, and he'd sometimes stop after about 25 or 30 minutes… yet pay the 45-minute rate. I'd try to say "well we only worked together for 20 minutes the last time, so don't pay for this time because you're still only at about 45 minutes" and he'd say "No, no, that's not fair. I booked 45 minutes and I'm happy with what I got out of it and you couldn't book anyone else in this time" and they'd go off and pay for the 45-minute rate.

At the end of the day, those are all forms of "tipping" or "appreciating the level of service."

Yup.

 

I still responded directly to what you wrote.  I did not twist anything.  You said it so yourself.  And have continued to do so.  Wouldn't it be better to build better relationships around communication and actions instead of buying them with tips?

That is great that you tipped all of those people.  Did you then expect them to do more for you?  Or did you actually tip them out of generosity and for a service completed?

Edited October 8, 2015 by pumaAttack

[ncarlsongolf]

 

Yes, I do tip my hair cutter.  I usually tip them $5.  The difference?  I do not expect a better haircut or extra attention because of that tip.  I am tipping them for a service that is 100% completed and done.   I do not expect to go back a week later and get a touch up because I gave them a tip.  In addition, the average wage for a hair stylist is nowhere near that of a golf instructor.  

 

I think where you are still getting held up is expecting.  I have never said anything is expected from a tip, nor is the tip itself expected.  It is a nice gesture, it goes along way to show your appreciation for whatever service or product was offered and delivered.  You never expect a better haircut because that barber always gives good cuts (just like I would always give good lessons) but you are offering your gratitude (monetarily) for that haircut.  I think you'd be surprised at how far a gesture like that goes.  

[iacas]

Yes, I do tip my hair cutter.  I usually tip them $5.  The difference?  I do not expect a better haircut or extra attention because of that tip. I am tipping them for a service that is 100% completed and done. I do not expect to go back a week later and get a touch up because I gave them a tip.  In addition, the average wage for a hair stylist is nowhere near that of a golf instructor.  

Here's what you seem to be missing: I don't think any of the people who tipped me did so because they "expected" anything extra, either.

The simple fact is that I appreciated the kind gesture and sought to return it in some small way, even if it means not getting to finish my lunch or something.

Ok, you are right.   You are paying for them to get above minimum wage.  Is that the case for a golf instructor?  No.

My barber makes more than minimum wage. So does yours, I imagine.

The simple fact is that I tip when I feel someone has already gone above and beyond. That is how I think most everyone who has ever tipped me has done it: they feel that I've already done something to warrant the tip.

I still responded directly to what you wrote.  I did not twist anything.  You said it so yourself.  And have continued to do so.  

No, you really didn't. You responded to a piece of what was said and ignored the context and meaning.

That is great that you tipped all of those people.  Did you then expect them to do more for you?  Or did you actually tip them out of generosity and for a service completed?

I tipped because they had already done more than I expected. What they chose to do after that is up to them. Some said thanks and went home. I did not think any less of them, because I was not tipping them hoping they'd do even more. Some took a little extra time to do something else.

[pumaAttack]

I think where you are still getting held up is expecting.  I have never said anything is expected from a tip, nor is the tip itself expected.  It is a nice gesture, it goes along way to show your appreciation for whatever service or product was offered and delivered.  You never expect a better haircut because that barber always gives good cuts (just like I would always give good lessons) but you are offering your gratitude (monetarily) for that haircut.  I think you'd be surprised at how far a gesture like that goes.  

 

Correct.  My whole issue is with giving extra attention to a person just because they tipped you.  I think that is shady.  

I always tip and never expect more from it.  If they gave me more service/attention, I would say that is not necessary and move along.  

Here's what you seem to be missing: I don't think any of the people who tipped me did so because they "expected" anything extra, either.

The simple fact is that I appreciated the kind gesture and sought to return it in some small way, even if it means not getting to finish my lunch or something.

My barber makes more than minimum wage. So does yours, I imagine.

The simple fact is that I tip when I feel someone has already gone above and beyond. That is how I think most everyone who has ever tipped me has done it: they feel that I've already done something to warrant the tip.

No, you really didn't. You responded to a piece of what was said and ignored the context and meaning.

I tipped because they had already done more than I expected. What they chose to do after that is up to them. Some said thanks and went home. I did not think any less of them, because I was not tipping them hoping they'd do even more. Some took a little extra time to do something else.

But, are you building a culture with them that tipping is the best/only way to get that extra attention?  It sure seems impossible to argue that.  People learn from past behavior.  Say a guy had never tipped you after 20 lessons and you had never once stopped him and asked how his game was going on the putting green, but then after he tips you after one lesson, you suddenly approach him to chat about this game.  Do you not think that builds the assumption that tips are the key to getting more?

 

Or say two of your students are on the green and you only chat up one of them while completely ignoring the other.  Then after your lesson with the student you chatted with, the other student sees a tip being handed over.  What do you think the impression is?

Edited October 8, 2015 by pumaAttack

[Gator Hazard]

 

Yes, I do tip my hair cutter.  I usually tip them $5.  The difference?  I do not expect a better haircut or extra attention because of that tip.  I am tipping them for a service that is 100% completed and done.   I do not expect to go back a week later and get a touch up because I gave them a tip.  In addition, the average wage for a hair stylist is nowhere near that of a golf instructor.  

 

Ok, you are right.   You are paying for them to get above minimum wage.  Is that the case for a golf instructor?  No.  You are also forgetting that waiters have other duties besides waiting on you. Stocking, cleaning, etc.  The business is paying them for those services to the business.

If you didn't have to tip a waiter at all, because the price on the menu included food and service, your meal would cost more. That is the bottom line.  The tip you pay is up to you, not the restaurant. 

 

 

You basically went from a position that tipping is in essence bribing people to saying that you yourself tip people after they are done with no expectation of anything in return (a position every single person who discussed tipping took).  You are either A) a hypocrite or B) live in a world where you think basic human nature applies to everyone but you.

Your meal would not cost more unless the restaurant went to a system where they specify that no tipping is necessary because they are paying their servers above minimum wage.  You could not be more wrong or factually incorrect about the things you are saying.  Your last three sentences are contradictory to each other.  

More than a few times I have seen you argue basically for the sake of arguing and completely disregard factual statements or supporting information.  Ultimately you cannot reason with unreasonable people.

[pumaAttack]

You basically went from a position that tipping is in essence bribing people to saying that you yourself tip people after they are done with no expectation of anything in return (a position every single person who discussed tipping took).  You are either A) a hypocrite or B) live in a world where you think basic human nature applies to everyone but you.

Your meal would not cost more unless the restaurant went to a system where they specify that no tipping is necessary because they are paying their servers above minimum wage.  You could not be more wrong or factually incorrect about the things you are saying.  Your last three sentences are contradictory to each other.  

More than a few times I have seen you argue basically for the sake of arguing and completely disregard factual statements or supporting information.  Ultimately you cannot reason with unreasonable people.

 

I have the position that giving extra attention only to people that tip is shady.  Nothing changed.  Bribes are different than tips.  Nothing hypocritical there.

You are 100% wrong on the service industry in restaurants.  Sorry but you are.  Food is cheaper because you are not paying for the waiters service.  That is what the tip is and why they can be paid below minimum wage.  I think you need to get more in touch with reality here.  Waiting on you is not the only reason a waiter gets paid.  They have other duties to keep up the restaurant.  

Edited October 8, 2015 by pumaAttack

[Gator Hazard]

I'm not going to go into the whole tipping your instructor thing because I don't take lessons. 

Unfortunately servers have to tip out to the employer at the end of their shift, even with them being paid like $2.13 a hour based on how much time you took and what you total bill cost if you didn't tip them it could cost more then their hourly wage was, resulting in them paying to serve you if you didn't tip.

I agree and understand the way that servers are paid, that does not change the FACT that I do not have to tip when I order a cheeseburger or any other food or drink item from an establishment.  I never made mention of it being fair or just, I only discussed the objective fact that by its very definition, a tip is a tip, not monies that must be paid for services rendered.  Unfortunately cheap people will stiff the waiter and yes, at that point they may make less, in essence good tippers subsidize bad ones.  I usually tip anywhere from 15-30% depending on the service and more at times relative to the size of the bill.  

I just bought lunch at a restaurant, they gave me a menu.  I examined it, ordered and paid for what I ordered. If I walked out without giving a tip there is nothing they can do.  I didn't but that is beside the point.

[pumaAttack]

I agree and understand the way that servers are paid, that does not change the FACT that I do not have to tip when I order a cheeseburger or any other food or drink item from an establishment.  I never made mention of it being fair or just, I only discussed the objective fact that by its very definition, a tip is a tip, not monies that must be paid for services rendered.  Unfortunately cheap people will stiff the waiter and yes, at that point they may make less, in essence good tippers subsidize bad ones.  I usually tip anywhere from 15-30% depending on the service and more at times relative to the size of the bill.  

I just bought lunch at a restaurant, they gave me a menu.  I examined it, ordered and paid for what I ordered. If I walked out without giving a tip there is nothing they can do.  I didn't but that is beside the point.

Dude, you are not getting it.

Yes, you will not be arrested if you don't tip.  You ever said that?  You are the only person with this line of thinking.  

The price on the menu is for food.  The tip is for service.  You do not have to tip if you don't want to.  That is up to you.   You are tipping if you think the service was great or if you have empathy for the waiter.

Edited October 8, 2015 by pumaAttack

[Gator Hazard]

 

I have the position that giving extra attention only to people that tip is shady.  Nothing changed.  Bribes are different than tips.  Nothing hypocritical there.

You are 100% wrong on the service industry in restaurants.  Sorry but you are.  Food is cheaper because you are not paying for the waiters service.  That is what the tip is and why they can be paid below minimum wage.  I think you need to get more in touch with reality here.  Waiting on you is not the only reason a waiter gets paid.  They have other duties to keep up the restaurant.  

You have an opinion on the service industry, my position is 100% factually correct.  Just because you do not agree with it does not make it untrue.  You are the one who is wrong.  Read my posts where I mentioned that the system here is different (taxes) and thus they are paid below minimum wage due to them receiving tips.  That is true, but that does NOT make what I said untrue.  The very definition of a tip is that it is something over and above what is expected.  The other way I can FACTUALLY tell you that you are 100% wrong is that the service industry itself uses the very definition TIP!  Are you going to argue with 1) the definition and 2) the fact that every service industry restaurant model uses that definition?  Go ahead.  Does not make you right.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[pumaAttack]

You have an opinion on the service industry, my position is 100% factually correct.  Just because you do not agree with it does not make it untrue.  You are the one who is wrong.  Read my posts where I mentioned that the system here is different (taxes) and thus they are paid below minimum wage due to them receiving tips.  That is true, but that does NOT make what I said untrue.  The very definition of a tip is that it is something over and above what is expected.  The other way I can FACTUALLY tell you that you are 100% wrong is that the service industry itself uses the very definition TIP!  Are you going to argue with 1) the definition and 2) the fact that every service industry restaurant model uses that definition?  Go ahead.  Does not make you right.

Dude, you need to read what you write.  You are all over the place and make no sense.  

[Gator Hazard]

Dude, you are not getting it.

Yes, you will not be arrested if you don't tip.  You ever said that?  You are the only person with this line of thinking.  

The price on the menu is for food.  The tip is for service.  You do not have to tip if you don't want to.  That is up to you.   You are tipping if you think the service was great or if you have empathy for the waiter.

You are completely illogical and I am finished with this discussion.  Go look up what a tip is in the dictionary, go look at restaurants and how they bill for their business model.  You yourself said tips were the payment for service.  That is not true, at a minimum the business is costing in the $2 and change per hour they are required by law to pay to their service staff.  You have an issue with basic comprehension.  Good day.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Gator Hazard
Edited to take out a snarky comment I should not have made, even if justified

[iacas]

Correct.  My whole issue is with giving extra attention to a person just because they tipped you.  I think that is shady. 

I already addressed that. If you give "extra" attention to everyone, it's not "extra."

Plus, let's say I charge $x for a 45-minute lesson and $1.5x for a 75-minute lesson. If someone tips me $1.3x and I cut short my lunch and give them ten extra minutes one time, the math shows that the person is actually getting less time than they paid for.

A tip is a nice gesture, as is going even farther above and beyond.

I've cut short lunch and helped people who didn't tip me in the past, too. I've helped people who have never paid me a dime. Do I cut short my lunch (just to keep beating on that example - when in reality I rarely even eat lunch, but I'm using it as a euphemism for "my time") to help everyone? No. I make the decision on a case-by-case basis. If that person has tipped, or if that person is a joy to be around, or if that person is really struggling, or if that person knows me via a friend-of-a-friend, or if countless other things are true, they weigh into my decision to give the person extra attention. There are lots of factors there. One of them is that I enjoy what I do, and so sometimes I get a kick out of helping people. I like seeing the smile on their faces when they hit better shots.

What you want to see as some sort of implicit and strong wink-nudge agreement that if you tip me I am going to help you extra is not ever the case. Everyone who has ever tipped me, IMO, has done so for services already rendered, and even if we look at the math and say that it implies that they'll get "extra" services, when you look at it as a cost-per-minute of instruction, they actually end up coming out on the short end of the stick. But they don't feel that way, because in their minds, the extra stuff is just that: extra. They've tipped for stuff that's already occurred.

I always tip and never expect more from it.  If they gave me more service/attention, I would say that is not necessary and move along.  

That's all that's happening when I have talked about the people that have tipped me. They tip for what's happened in the past, not any sort of "agreement" about future services.

But, are you building a culture with them that tipping is the best/only way to get that extra attention? 

No. You almost couldn't be farther off target.

Say a guy had never tipped you after 20 lessons and you had never once stopped him and asked how his game was going on the putting green, but then after he tips you after one lesson, you suddenly approach him to chat about this game.  Do you not think that builds the assumption that tips are the key to getting more?

Dude, that's never happened. If a guy has taken one lesson from me, it's almost guaranteed that I'll stop to talk with him about his game if I have the time (and quite good chances I'll make the time if possible). We tell our students all the time that if we're free we're happy to look at their swing, make sure they're doing the drill correctly, etc. for five minutes.

The point re: tipping was that if they've tipped (or as I have already said a bunch of other things, including but not limited to "joy to be around" or "really struggling" or whatever), I'm slightly more likely to spend some extra time with them when it's my time - like when I'm eating lunch or doing other work (maybe for this site), or when I'm with my family just visiting the course to hit some balls and work with my daughter…

Sorry, dude, to shatter the picture you've seemingly built up of me of some mercenary dick that only helps people who pay extra. Couldn't be farther from the truth, and "has the person tipped" is one of tens or a hundred different things I might weigh in spending extra time with the person on my time.

Or say two of your students are on the green and you only chat up one of them while completely ignoring the other.  Then after your lesson with the student you chatted with, the other student sees a tip being handed over.  What do you think the impression is?

Now you're just making up stuff that has never and will never happen.

Also, I second what @Gator Hazard has added lately.

Edited October 8, 2015 by iacas

[pumaAttack]

I already addressed that. If you give "extra" attention to everyone, it's not "extra."

Plus, let's say I charge $x for a 45-minute lesson and $1.5x for a 75-minute lesson. If someone tips me $1.3x and I cut short my lunch and give them ten extra minutes one time, the math shows that the person is actually getting less time than they paid for.

A tip is a nice gesture, as is going even farther above and beyond.

I've cut short lunch and helped people who didn't tip me in the past, too. I've helped people who have never paid me a dime. Do I cut short my lunch (just to keep beating on that example - when in reality I rarely even eat lunch, but I'm using it as a euphemism for "my time") to help everyone? No. I make the decision on a case-by-case basis. If that person has tipped, or if that person is a joy to be around, or if that person is really struggling, or if that person knows me via a friend-of-a-friend, or if countless other things are true, they weigh into my decision to give the person extra attention. There are lots of factors there. One of them is that I enjoy what I do, and so sometimes I get a kick out of helping people. I like seeing the smile on their faces when they hit better shots.

What you want to see as some sort of implicit and strong wink-nudge agreement that if you tip me I am going to help you extra is not ever the case. Everyone who has ever tipped me, IMO, has done so for services already rendered, and even if we look at the math and say that it implies that they'll get "extra" services, when you look at it as a cost-per-minute of instruction, they actually end up coming out on the short end of the stick. But they don't feel that way, because in their minds, the extra stuff is just that: extra. They've tipped for stuff that's already occurred.

That's all that's happening when I have talked about the people that have tipped me. They tip for what's happened in the past, not any sort of "agreement" about future services.

No. You almost couldn't be farther off target.

Dude, that's never happened. If a guy has taken one lesson from me, it's almost guaranteed that I'll stop to talk with him about his game if I have the time (and quite good chances I'll make the time if possible). We tell our students all the time that if we're free we're happy to look at their swing, make sure they're doing the drill correctly, etc. for five minutes.

The point re: tipping was that if they've tipped (or as I have already said a bunch of other things, including but not limited to "joy to be around" or "really struggling" or whatever), I'm slightly more likely to spend some extra time with them when it's my time - like when I'm eating lunch or doing other work (maybe for this site), or when I'm with my family just visiting the course to hit some balls and work with my daughter…

Sorry, dude, to shatter the picture you've seemingly built up of me of some mercenary dick that only helps people who pay extra. Couldn't be farther from the truth, and "has the person tipped" is one of tens or a hundred different things I might weigh in spending extra time with the person on my time.

Now you're just making up stuff that has never and will never happen.

Also, I second what @Gator Hazard has added lately.

 

Listen, I am glad you do that for all your students.  Even people that have never paid a dime.  This is the first time you stated that being the case.   Hence my stance.  

If you do that for everybody, I have no issue and appreciate you, or any  instructor, helping out people off the clock.

Thanks for clearing up your position on that extra help.

 

You agree with GatorHazard that a tip is not helping to pay the server his wage?  That the cost of the food is alone enough?

You are completely illogical and I am finished with this discussion.  Go look up what a tip is in the dictionary, go look at restaurants and how they bill for their business model.  You yourself said tips were the payment for service.  That is not true, at a minimum the business is costing in the $2 and change per hour they are required by law to pay to their service staff.  You have an issue with basic comprehension.  Good day.

 

If you fail to see that a tip is strictly for the waiter's service, I have nothing more to say to you.  They are not getting paid out enough from the menu cost alone.  If you choose to be cheap and not tip, that is your decision and completely legal.  If you have empathy or appreciate good service, you tip.  Sorry buddy but you need to learn the basics first.  According to you, the waiters only role is to wait on you.  Which is simply not true.  

Edited October 8, 2015 by pumaAttack

[iacas]

Listen, I am glad you do that for all your students.  Even people that have never paid a dime.  This is the first time you stated that being the case.   Hence my stance. 

No, Tony. You've been mischaracterizing my position from the outset, and I'm not interested in hearing about how you think that's not true. That's beside the point and people can read through and decide for themselves. I'll stipulate to the fact that you will disagree with that statement.

You agree with GatorHazard that a tip is not helping to pay the server his wage?  That the cost of the food is alone enough?

No, I agree with his opinion of you in this topic.

Edited October 8, 2015 by iacas

[Gator Hazard]

 

Listen, I am glad you do that for all your students.  Even people that have never paid a dime.  This is the first time you stated that being the case.   Hence my stance.  

If you do that for everybody, I have no issue and appreciate you, or any  instructor, helping out people off the clock.

Thanks for clearing up your position on that extra help.

 

You agree with GatorHazard that a tip is not helping to pay the server his wage?  That the cost of the food is alone enough?

 

If you fail to see that a tip is strictly for the waiter's service, I have nothing more to say to you.  They are not getting paid out enough from the menu cost alone.  If you choose to be cheap and not tip, that is your decision and completely legal.  If you have empathy or appreciate good service, you tip.  Sorry buddy but you need to learn the basics first.  According to you, the waiters only role is to wait on you.  Which is simply not true.  

You only read things you want to read and argue things you want to argue, logic be damned.  Go look at the definition of a tip, stop arguing your sentiments. I am a very good tipper (in general you have to really screw up AND have attitude to not get a tip from me and I count the times I have not tipped in my lifetime on one hand), and in case you forgot I was the one who started this thread.  You see, these are the points I am making, you clearly have issues with reading comprehension.

[14ledo81]

I must really be sleezy/shady.  I (quite often) tip more at local restaurants that I frequent often.  I hope to continue to get good service by doing so.

[Gator Hazard]

I must really be sleezy/shady.  I (quite often) tip more at local restaurants that I frequent often.  I hope to continue to get good service by doing so.

You sir are a horrible person.