What Would Jack Nicklaus Shoot if.....

[natureboy]

@Gator Hazard, it's not really like driving a new car. It's like driving an alien spaceship. And the aliens had five legs and no arms.

Plus the question is asking what he'd shoot the first time, not eventually.

 

Ha, I like that example.

Basically all I'm saying is the  "connection" between the mind and the body just wouldn't be there.

 

Also include @Gator Hazard in this response.

It's like if I tried to play golf after not making a swing for 5 years. When I tried to hit a ball I would still "know" how to swing but the body wouldn't cooperate. The body hasn't been "trained" to make a swing in 5 years.

Similar kind of thing with Jack, he'd be transported into a body where his "feels" don't translate and the motor pattern (or whatever you want to call it) is faulty. 

 

Given how inter-twined an individual's brain and body's neuro-muscular coordination signals are from birth, FrankenJack would likely have a hard time just walking the course as fine motor control is tied to the the error-correction systems in the Cerebellum which are tuned to the particular feedback from that individual body.

'Realistically' I would expect a Jason Day like disequilibrium at best and a coordination disturbance more like Cerebral Palsy or early Parkinson's assuming the brain - body reconnection was perfect. So I would actually expect a huge regression to 'beginner' skill...if that.

My vote is now 'worse'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_learning

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_control

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

 

Edited October 28, 2015 by natureboy

[LagShaft]

Probably maybe...that's my point this is a blanket post widely open to interpretation that holds no water other than to equivocate a point to a discussion in another thread.  If we want to have fun with it great but there is nothing here that is arguable in any sense.  Now had you posted my swing and said put Jacks mind in this body I'd say yes your right not a chance. That dude gots problems lol

Edited October 28, 2015 by LagShaft

[iacas]

Now had you posted my swing and said put Jacks mind in this body I'd say yes your right not a chance. That dude gots problems lol

That's what the question is asking (if you're the guy in the OP).

[Lihu]

If you put his mind into the body of a golfer who can't break 100? 

First try, golfer gets a warm up bucket before the round.

Let's say the golfer typically shoots between 105-110, hits 1 green in regulation every couple of rounds, can hit his driver 190 yards off the tee and doesn't have any physical issues or disabilities (other than a bad golf swing).

Jack's brain doesn't transfer Jack's swing to the hacker's body. So the question basically comes down to: what would Jack shoot if he only hit it 190 off the tee, missed every green, hit a few OB, hit plenty of fat and thin shots.

 

In reading the original text, and some of the other posts here, I can see why people think that it would not help. If you simply dump the contents of Jack's brain without the motor skills and such then he might simply get frustrated and quit the game.

Here's my take:

If a golfer who normally hits 190 yards off the tee (the typical golfer BTW), that is probably because he can't swing well and does not hit the center of the face. If we took the contents of Jack's brain which includes all the motor skills (like the contents of the Cerebellum) Jack has, and download it into this bogey golfers brain then that golfer I am thinking that that golfer will now have the same hand eye coordination as Jack. This will help this BogeyJack golfer hit the center of the face more often and swing more efficiently to get him at least 50 yards?

He might not have the strength and physical recovery ability as Jack, but I do think that he would have the ability to shoot whatever scores Jack could if he were in a severely weakened state. I also think this bogey golfers drives would improve by at least 50 yards. He would be able to carry 240 yards and drive to 250? That same person would be able to take a 7i and hit it straight 155 yards. Putting and short game would most likely be Jack quality. So, this player could potentially be scratch.

All this is out the window if we do not consider the data dump to include motor skills and a reasonably healthy body.

Here's an interesting link: http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/996477-what-does-jack-nicklaus-score-today/

Remember that he's really old and still shooting in the 90s as the OP suggested BogeyJack would shoot.

 

[Gator Hazard]

Here's another point. Even if you put Jack's brain in your body. You are not going to be hitting 280-300 yard power fades all day. Your body is still limited by it's own physical limitations. Lets not forget that Jack was an ATHLETE. He was recruited by Ohio State to play basketball. 

People are probably imagining themselves hitting all these great shots. They wouldn't. We do not have Jack's build or physical ability to hit the ball. Athletes are not athletes because of their mind but of their body. It's the mind + athletic ability that makes athletes great. 

If you stick the mind of Michael Jordan in a 5'5" tall skinny white guy he's going to suck royally bad at basketball. If you stick the mind of Roger Clemens in the body of a skinny nerd he's not going to throw 90+ MPH fastballs. 

 

you don't have to put it out 280 to 300 yards to play bogey golf so that really doesn't apply. I'm sure the 230 ish or more I can get when I hit it well coupled with his brain aiding my body hitting better and more consistent will suffice.  At 30 I was six feet and 205 to 215 lbs depending and in pretty good shape.  I know I wasn't recruited at a collegiate level but I was a top wrestler in my weight class and state in high school as well as being good at other sports. I am not exactly without athletic ability. 

Edited October 28, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[nevets88]

I recommend reading approximately pages 36-42 of The Talent Code - it talks about motor processes/muscle memory not being entirely in the domain of the brain. 

I'm no expert, so this is analogy might be completely wrong. Computer, CPU, bus, memory. CPU:brain::Bus:nervous system pathways.

If Nicklaus is today's computer and 40 handicap is an ancient IBM 286 PC and we replace its CPU w today's Intel i9, it still is slow as heck because the bus speed is the bottleneck. The signals going from the CPU to memory are too darn slow.

[Gator Hazard]

It doesn't matter. No one can prove or disprove. 

I recommend reading approximately pages 36-42 of The Talent Code - it talks about motor processes/muscle memory not being entirely in the domain of the brain. 

The question didn't ask if jacks brain was marooned in the body of the leprechaun king. It says if you put his brain into the body of a golfer who can't break 100. That is the key, the body already belongs to a golfer. Said golfer could shoot 101 and qualify in which case I am saying jacks brain and all that comes with it is certainly worth 11 or so strokes. We cannot assume that jacks brain is not able to control the body  

I'm sticking with it until someone shows me a study on athletically accomplished brains are put into average bodies and tested for performance. 

[nevets88]

It doesn't matter. No one can prove or disprove. 

The question didn't ask if jacks brain was marooned in the body of the leprechaun king. It says if you put his brain into the body of a golfer who can't break 100. That is the key, the body already belongs to a golfer. Said golfer could shoot 101 and qualify in which case I am saying jacks brain and all that comes with it is certainly worth 11 or so strokes. We cannot assume that jacks brain is not able to control the body  

I'm sticking with it until someone shows me a study on athletically accomplished brains are put into average bodies and tested for performance. 

There is always a risk of rejection when transplanting organs and a bevy of meds/anti-rejection drugs sometimes need to be taken to get the body to accept the new liver, heart, kidney, whatever. It can totally go the other way that a brain transplant would make the amateur even less coordinated than he was to begin with. Imho, Nicklaus's brain (geez, this is a getting a little morbid) is not a panacea.

The only way I'd think this would work is if you clone Nicklaus and somehow inject amateur's memories/consciousness into Nicklaus clone and have both memories/consciousness coexist.

[Gator Hazard]

There is always a risk of rejection when transplanting organs and a bevy of meds/anti-rejection drugs sometimes need to be taken to get the body to accept the new liver, heart, kidney, whatever. It can totally go the other way that a brain transplant would make the amateur even less coordinated than he was to begin with. Imho, Nicklaus's brain (geez, this is a getting a little morbid) is not a panacea.

The only way I'd think this would work is if you clone Nicklaus and somehow inject amateur's memories/consciousness into Nicklaus clone and have both memories/consciousness coexist.

yes. Do you believe that was considered by op or that the intent is all else being equal jacks brain 101 golfers body and the body and brain are compatible?  That is how I am reading the question. Otherwise the answer is no because because jacks brain couldn't regulate anything and the golfer would be a vegetable with a great golfing mind no one can access

Edited October 29, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[Lihu]

I recommend reading approximately pages 36-42 of The Talent Code - it talks about motor processes/muscle memory not being entirely in the domain of the brain. 

Interesting, I just read through it more carefully.

One thing I found interesting is that it states that age really matters. It states that by 50, you start losing Myelin and that there is only a 5% reserve of Oligos. Which means it's difficult or impossible to learn new motor skills that require Myelin? So, does that mean that in general it's not worthwhile for a golfer over 50 years old to learn a complicated set of skills like golf?

It also states that you can't unlearn bad habits, and that even strengthening the Myelin surrounding the proper pathways are not 100% eliminating the bad pathways.

Seems a little bit like a "death call" to growing golf as most people taking it up are older?

 

It doesn't matter. No one can prove or disprove. 

The question didn't ask if jacks brain was marooned in the body of the leprechaun king. It says if you put his brain into the body of a golfer who can't break 100. That is the key, the body already belongs to a golfer. Said golfer could shoot 101 and qualify in which case I am saying jacks brain and all that comes with it is certainly worth 11 or so strokes. We cannot assume that jacks brain is not able to control the body  

I'm sticking with it until someone shows me a study on athletically accomplished brains are put into average bodies and tested for performance. 

The first head transplant is about to be attempted. . .

[nevets88]

Interesting, I just read through it more carefully.

One thing I found interesting is that it states that age really matters. It states that by 50, you start losing Myelin and that there is only a 5% reserve of Oligos. Which means it's difficult or impossible to learn new motor skills that require Myelin? So, does that mean that in general it's not worthwhile for a golfer over 50 years old to learn a complicated set of skills like golf?

It also states that you can't unlearn bad habits, and that even strengthening the Myelin surrounding the proper pathways are not 100% eliminating the bad pathways.

Seems a little bit like a "death call" to growing golf as most people taking it up are older?

 

The first head transplant is about to be attempted. . .

The age stuff is getting off-topic. The gist of those pages, the way I'm interpreting it, is connections are important.

You want to lift your hand 2 inches above the table. So you think - move hand this much so. But that thought has to go through pathways to the arm and hand in order to do so. How accurately those pathways work to convey 2 inches above the table makes a difference. If info is lost along the way, forget about 2 inch accuracy. Now for a super complex motion like the golf swing, those pathways have to be super accurate in retaining information, super fast and super coordinated. I'm in agreement w/OP that score isn't going to change much. I'm just trying to understand the science of it. I'm certainly not an expert, so I may be expressing myself incoherently.

[Gator Hazard]

Interesting, I just read through it more carefully.

One thing I found interesting is that it states that age really matters. It states that by 50, you start losing Myelin and that there is only a 5% reserve of Oligos. Which means it's difficult or impossible to learn new motor skills that require Myelin? So, does that mean that in general it's not worthwhile for a golfer over 50 years old to learn a complicated set of skills like golf?

It also states that you can't unlearn bad habits, and that even strengthening the Myelin surrounding the proper pathways are not 100% eliminating the bad pathways.

Seems a little bit like a "death call" to growing golf as most people taking it up are older?

 

The first head transplant is about to be attempted. . .

Interesting, I just read through it more carefully.

One thing I found interesting is that it states that age really matters. It states that by 50, you start losing Myelin and that there is only a 5% reserve of Oligos. Which means it's difficult or impossible to learn new motor skills that require Myelin? So, does that mean that in general it's not worthwhile for a golfer over 50 years old to learn a complicated set of skills like golf?

It also states that you can't unlearn bad habits, and that even strengthening the Myelin surrounding the proper pathways are not 100% eliminating the bad pathways.

Seems a little bit like a "death call" to growing golf as most people taking it up are older?

 

The first head transplant is about to be attempted. . .

I think of it in terms of the matrix. Jacks brain is stored on a disk and downloaded. Keanu wakes up and instead of saying "I know Kung fu" he says "I am a really great golfer". Larry fishbourne hands him a sunday bag with 7 clubs and some golf balls and says show me. And although at first he isnt Bruce lee  he certainly isn't looking like us when we were 10 and thought we were ninjas. 

[nevets88]

While The Talent code explains the pathways in the brain are optimized and it doesn't talk about the pathways outside the brain to a specific body part. From the diagrams, I'm assuming that the myelin has to wrap itself densely all the way to the end of the nerve.

[LagShaft]

 

Can't be talking about me I hit a 3 iron atleast 207 off the tee I know because that's where the water hazard started last time I was out

 

I think of it in terms of the matrix. Jacks brain is stored on a disk and downloaded. Keanu wakes up and instead of saying "I know Kung fu" he says "I am a really great golfer". Larry fishbourne hands him a sunday bag with 7 clubs and some golf balls and says show me. And although at first he isnt Bruce lee  he certainly isn't looking like us when we were 10 and thought we were ninjas. 

yep he'd be bending shots and taking names!!

While The Talent code explains the pathways in the brain are optimized and it doesn't talk about the pathways outside the brain to a specific body part. From the diagrams, I'm assuming that the myelin has to wrap itself densely all the way to the end of the nerve.

From my understanding myelin has to do specifically with the white matter in the brain.  Muscle memory in the extremities would consist strengthening of certain muscles used in your swing. But I could be wrong about that.

Edited October 29, 2015 by LagShaft

[nevets88]

According to the links below, there's myelin in the spinal cord. 

http://www.brainfacts.org/brain-basics/neuroanatomy/articles/2015/myelin/

http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/brain-spinal-cord-and-nerve-disorders/multiple-sclerosis-ms-and-related-disorders/overview-of-demyelinating-disorders

 

 

[LagShaft]

According to the links below, there's myelin in the spinal cord. 

http://www.brainfacts.org/brain-basics/neuroanatomy/articles/2015/myelin/

http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/brain-spinal-cord-and-nerve-disorders/multiple-sclerosis-ms-and-related-disorders/overview-of-demyelinating-disorders

 

 

Fair enough I'd read an article about it pertaining to Cerebral Palsy recently and thought that it was isolated there. Thanks for the correction.

Edited October 29, 2015 by LagShaft

[GRCTampa]

Jack's brain doesn't transfer Jack's swing to the hacker's body. So the question basically comes down to: what would Jack shoot if he only hit it 190 off the tee, missed every green, hit a few OB, hit plenty of fat and thin shots.

Given this criteria, what would any golfer shoot if he only hit 190 off the tee, missed every green, hit a few OB, hit plenty of fat and thin shots. Not sure it makes a difference who's brain is in that body, he still can't break 100. 

[Big Lex]

Maybe this wasn't clear but the point of the post is to illustrate how relatively unimportant the mental game is to scoring when compared to full swing skills/mechanics.

 

Maybe that was your intention, but I don't think the post illustrates that point.

The post only begs the question of what, exactly, the mental game IS. One's answers in this poll reflect their opinion or bias on that question.

In your original post, you specify that all Jack's mind can do is "make decisions" for the golfer. That is your definition of the mental game, and you further add, that such decision making can't "override" poor swing habits, etc. Set up this way, with these biases or assumptions, you could only draw one conclusion.

But I don't share your belief - and I don't think it's been proven - that all the mind does is "make decisions" for the golfer, decisions such as (I presume you mean) club selection, target, etc., and I'm not sure that an expert mind which knew how to golf at a world class level couldn't, to some degree, override crappy swing habits and mechanics.

My answer to the original question would be that the 100 shooter would be "better than average" with the benefit of Jack's brain. Predicting one round? I don't know....can we predict what Rory is going to shoot on his next round? I think with a pro's brain captaining your ship, you are likely, over say 20 rounds, to play the best golf of your life. You'd have more rounds closer to your all time best than ever before, and fewer blow up rounds than you would ordinarily have over that time period. Exactly how much better? Again, you can't answer it. I can think of three 18 handicappers at my club who usually shoot one round per year either in the high 70s or low 80s, and I know of other 14-15 handicappers who never shoot less than 83 or 84. I guess you specified a golfer who "can't break 100," so the scores would be unlikely to dip much lower than 100, but the point is the scoring average would be better than what the golfer is used to.

One more point, regarding some of the other responses...motor movements are stored in the brain, not in muscles. Learning a motor movement means that the brain has automated a complex series of neuronal activities. Automated in that when we walk, we can continue to do it as long as we wish, and relatively "correctly" without having to think about the separate parts of the movement ("ok, lift my left foot...now push off with my right...swing the right leg back...."). So in reality, if we had some sort of "Star Trek" ability to actually transplant Jack Nicklaus's brain into one of our bodies, most likely we would be able to play very good golf, right away. If we use the analogy of a computer, learned movements are like software code or subroutines which we have. We have to write the routine and debug it to make sure it works, but once it's there, it works well....and it resides in the computer (the brain) and not in the peripheral device that the routine controls. Of course every body is different, and we wouldn't expect Jack's "software" to produce the same product from your muscles that they produced from his, but they would likely still be very good results. Human beings all have basically the same muscle groups, the same anatomic assembly, etc. But I don't think that was the question the OP was asking....he wasn't asking a science question, he was trying to illustrate his beliefs about the mental aspects of golf.

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Big Lex
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