Tensions rising in the region. Turkey shoots down Russian Su-24

[Gator Hazard]

News story on a NATO country shooting down a Russian Su-24 after repeatedly warning it of entering sovereign airspace over Turkey.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/report-turkey-shoots-down-warplane-over-airspace-intrusion-081734904.html#

 

 

[Braivo]

Uh oh. Poor move by a NATO country. Shows the NATO alliance is lacking in strong leadership. Putin will not be pleased. 

Also begs the question, whose side is Turkey on anyway in the fight against ISIS?

[newtogolf]

The problem is the sides change depending on the country.  In Syria we're not sure whose side we're on as neither ISIS or Assad are great options for us.  Russia clearly supports Assad so Turkey either supports ISIS or just doesn't like Russia flying close to their airspace. 

[Braivo]

3 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

The problem is the sides change depending on the country.  In Syria we're not sure whose side we're on as neither ISIS or Assad are great options for us.  Russia clearly supports Assad so Turkey either supports ISIS or just doesn't like Russia flying close to their airspace. 

That is a bold move by Turkey since they can't defend themselves on a large scale from Russia without NATO help. They didn't consult NATO allies first, or NATO is prepared to go to war with Russia, which I doubt. 

Turkey is like your short friend who picks a fight at the bar with the biggest guy there. 

[Gator Hazard]

1 minute ago, Braivo said:

That is a bold move by Turkey since they can't defend themselves on a large scale from Russia without NATO help. They didn't consult NATO allies first, or NATO is prepared to go to war with Russia, which I doubt. 

Turkey is like your short friend who picks a fight at the bar with the biggest guy there. 

The thing is, do you have to consult your NATO allies before defending your sovereign airspace?  Would we be expected to pick up the phone and call Turkey and the rest and ask permission to protect our airspace?  I can't say that I disagree with Turkey doing what they did.  Russia loves to push edges (borders) looking for a reaction.  Well this time they got one!  

[Braivo]

1 minute ago, Gator Hazard said:

The thing is, do you have to consult your NATO allies before defending your sovereign airspace?  Would we be expected to pick up the phone and call Turkey and the rest and ask permission to protect our airspace?  I can't say that I disagree with Turkey doing what they did.  Russia loves to push edges (borders) looking for a reaction.  Well this time they got one!  

The difference is the US does not rely on Turkey to defend ourselves. Turkey relies on us. 

Yeah, they might get a bigger reaction than they bargained for. Then what? They have to go to NATO. Hence, you consult them first before you do something rash. They weren't being attacked by Russia. 

[Gator Hazard]

Just now, Braivo said:

The difference is the US does not rely on Turkey to defend ourselves. Turkey relies on us. 

Yeah, they might get a bigger reaction than they bargained for. Then what? They have to go to NATO. Hence, you consult them first before you do something rash. They weren't being attacked by Russia. 

My point is that there is not enough time to consult NATO while a fighter jet is in your sovereign airspace.  You can't exactly call a meeting, have tea and a pipe and lively debate on what you should do with the enemy aircraft that just crossed into your borders (and knowing Russia I am sure this was not the first time). Turkey warned the plane 10 times in 5 minutes, they are far more patient than I would have been were I in command, I'm more of a three strikes and you get a sidewinder up the tailpipe kinda guy.  

[Braivo]

4 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

My point is that there is not enough time to consult NATO while a fighter jet is in your sovereign airspace.  You can't exactly call a meeting, have tea and a pipe and lively debate on what you should do with the enemy aircraft that just crossed into your borders (and knowing Russia I am sure this was not the first time). Turkey warned the plane 10 times in 5 minutes, they are far more patient than I would have been were I in command, I'm more of a three strikes and you get a sidewinder up the tailpipe kinda guy.  

This is short-term thinking. They were not threatening Turkey. 

When the bully that is twice your size wants your lunch money, you give him your lunch money. Then you go talk to your big brother about it and work out a plan. 

[Gator Hazard]

It is not short term thinking and is the expected outcome of any foreign plane, especially a plane of war crossing over into your airspace.  A country's first priority is protecting its citizens and from immediate danger.  I get what you are trying to say, because Russia is bigger and stronger but that doesn't make what they did wrong.  They did the right thing.  They cannot know that Russia is not going to bomb or strafe a village on their side of the border without any authorization or agreement from Turkey.  Nope, they got what they had coming to them.  This is a lesson in professional courtesy at the larger scale.  Turkey informed them that they need to abide by international laws and did what they were supposed to do.

 

[newtogolf]

I'd guess Turkey wanted Russia that they were violating their air space and if they continued Turkey would retaliate.  I find it hard to believe a Russian fighter jet got near or in their air space and Turkey just shot it down without any previous warnings.

[Gator Hazard]

Just now, newtogolf said:

I'd guess Turkey wanted Russia that they were violating their air space and if they continued Turkey would retaliate.  I find it hard to believe a Russian fighter jet got near or in their air space and Turkey just shot it down without any previous warnings.

Russia does this all the time.  If you look around you can find all sorts of news reports (and these are just the reported instances) of Russian jets, Russian Bombers and Russian naval vessels crossing over into other's territory.  We ourselves have had several of these types of instances with Russia over Alaska and up in Canada as well.  They hailed the fighter jet and warned them 10 times.  They were quite courteous and polite and gave them every opportunity to fly away.  You cannot warn someone and then not do anything after that amount of time.  Why even have an air force or any military if that is the case right?

[Braivo]

4 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

It is not short term thinking and is the expected outcome of any foreign plane, especially a plane of war crossing over into your airspace.  A country's first priority is protecting its citizens and from immediate danger.  I get what you are trying to say, because Russia is bigger and stronger but that doesn't make what they did wrong.  They did the right thing.  They cannot know that Russia is not going to bomb or strafe a village on their side of the border without any authorization or agreement from Turkey.  Nope, they got what they had coming to them.  This is a lesson in professional courtesy at the larger scale.  Turkey informed them that they need to abide by international laws and did what they were supposed to do.

 

Putin is a master chess player. He put out the bait and they took it. It was a win-win for him. If they shoot the plane down he can now puff his chest and get national support (in Russia) for his initiatives and put NATO on the defensive. If they didn't shoot it down then he knows he can push Turkey around. He has the advantage of being on the offensive.  

[Lihu]

37 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

The problem is the sides change depending on the country.  In Syria we're not sure whose side we're on as neither ISIS or Assad are great options for us.  Russia clearly supports Assad so Turkey either supports ISIS or just doesn't like Russia flying close to their airspace. 

 

I think the article mentioned that the rebels in Syria are supported by Al Quaida? The Russians clearly do not want more terrorists in that region so they support Assad?

[Braivo]

5 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

Russia does this all the time.  If you look around you can find all sorts of news reports (and these are just the reported instances) of Russian jets, Russian Bombers and Russian naval vessels crossing over into other's territory.  We ourselves have had several of these types of instances with Russia over Alaska and up in Canada as well.  They hailed the fighter jet and warned them 10 times.  They were quite courteous and polite and gave them every opportunity to fly away.  You cannot warn someone and then not do anything after that amount of time.  Why even have an air force or any military if that is the case right?

Turns out the jet was shot down over Syria, the pilots ejected and were killed by terrorists. 

The Western powers will do anything they can to avoid starting WWIII. This may mean that Turkey is on its own. 

[newtogolf]

3 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

I think the article mentioned that the rebels in Syria are supported by Al Quaida? The Russians clearly do not want more terrorists in that region so they support Assad?

Russia and China supported Assad long before ISIS was even called ISIS

[Gator Hazard]

1 minute ago, Braivo said:

Putin is a master chess player. He put out the bait and they took it. It was a win-win for him. If they shoot the plane down he can now puff his chest and get national support (in Russia) for his initiatives and put NATO on the defensive. If they didn't shoot it down then he knows he can push Turkey around. He has the advantage of being on the offensive.  

I could care less what support he gets at home.  Putin is putting the USS back in the R, has been for a long time.  Putin doesn't take NATO or the US seriously anymore and has been owning us on foreign policy.  He has no respect for the west since Obama took office (sorry, but that is just the plain old truth).

20 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

I think the article mentioned that the rebels in Syria are supported by Al Quaida? The Russians clearly do not want more terrorists in that region so they support Assad?

Russia has always supported Assad

[Braivo]

2 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

I could care less what support he gets at home.  Putin is putting the USS back in the R, has been for a long time.  Putin doesn't take NATO or the US seriously anymore and has been owning us on foreign policy.  He has no respect for the west since Obama took office (sorry, but that is just the plain old truth).

Yes, that is my point. Putin is testing the alliance. He knows they lack a strong leader. He plays Obama like a fiddle. Even Turkey, if they had respect / fear for the US they would have consulted before engaging Russian jets. 

[Gator Hazard]

21 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Turns out the jet was shot down over Syria, the pilots ejected and were killed by terrorists. 

The Western powers will do anything they can to avoid starting WWIII. This may mean that Turkey is on its own. 

I have not seen anything yet saying they shot down the plane over Syria.  I have seen that Turkey is providing the Radar path route which proves they crossed over into Turkish National airspace.  They have said they warned the jet 10 times in 5 minutes.  If they fired their missiles and the jet was  hit as it crossed back into Syria that doesn't mean anything.   The latest I have seen is that Russia will be mature and not do anything stupid.  We will see.  Putin should know that when you play games like this, eventually something bad can happen.  If he truly is a chess player he understands the loss of a pawn here and there.   I still agree with what Turkey did based on what I have read.

2 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Yes, that is my point. Putin is testing the alliance. He knows they lack a strong leader. He plays Obama like a fiddle. Even Turkey, if they had respect / fear for the US they would have consulted before engaging Russian jets. 

I don't agree that they would have consulted.  That is kind of like the when seconds matter the police are minutes away.  You don't consult when a war plane is circling over one of your cities or villages, you engage.