Making the natural fit the unnatural is the question.

[Dave325]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

No, I disagree. There's a lot you can consciously do right up until about A5 that changes the swing you're making.

... like weight moving forward for example.... keeping a steady head.... centered hip turn... to name a few major ones.

[Zesty]

I discovered once that if I start with a square clubface at address with a relaxed grip but then I really grip hard with my lead hand my clubface rotates open a little bit. I now work hard to make sure that my starting grip pressure matches my grip pressure at impact so I'm not opening the face a bit without even realizing it.

[collapse]

3 minutes ago, Zesty said:

I discovered once that if I start with a square clubface at address with a relaxed grip but then I really grip hard with my lead hand my clubface rotates open a little bit. I now work hard to make sure that my starting grip pressure matches my grip pressure at impact so I'm not opening the face a bit without even realizing it.

Interesting comment.....I will just say that Jim Flick(deceased), a Nicklaus friend,quotes JN as saying the club face is slightly open at address....I won't bother digging around for a link,but it is out there.

[Dave325]

18 minutes ago, collapse said:

Interesting comment.....I will just say that Jim Flick(deceased), a Nicklaus friend,quotes JN as saying the club face is slightly open at address....I won't bother digging around for a link,but it is out there.

I assume that is correct since Jack's stock shot is a fade. I just saw a golf channel piece that showed Jack's swing from the 60's, 70's through the 80's.... They were very much consistent with my be a bit less rotation in the later years. However, the odd thing was that I noticed he would always lift the left heel at the top of swing.... Something that I avoid that seems to be a very natural movement. Maybe the change of technique is due to technology, or the constant revelation of dynamics and swing mechanics (what the pros learn as time goes by). Not sure... But a natural feel does not feel very natural when you first try it out, I guess.

[collapse]

This is the concept in question... BTW Dave325....your list of swing thoughts is ever growing by the post.  http://www.golfdigest.com/story/jimflick_0707

Edited December 12, 2015 by collapse

[Dave325]

On December 12, 2015 at 11:59 AM, collapse said:

This is the concept in question... BTW Dave325....your list of swing thoughts is ever growing by the post.  http://www.golfdigest.com/story/jimflick_0707

Oh, not really a swing thought. Just an observation of Jack's swing over the years where his natural swing hadn't changed much over the years. It seems that he found the swing that worked for him early in his career and stuck with it. So, I guess he answered the question on making the natural fit the unnatural (at least for himself, eh?). Maybe it's an individual thing that each person needs to find... not sure (shrug).

[collapse]

 "I've never seen a really good player set it square or closed at address," he said.

Dave325,...my perspective on what makes the swing work is based on small subtle things,like Jack's open face opinion.The 5sk article on good and bad swings looking the same supports this idea as well. 

[saevel25]

8 minutes ago, collapse said:

Dave325,...my perspective on what makes the swing work is based on small subtle things,like Jack's open face opinion.The 5sk article on good and bad swings looking the same supports this idea as well. 

Swings work due to 5 things. There is just a lot of window dressing that makes the swings unique for everyone else. Those things are not even remotely important enough to warrant them as things that make the swing work. 

[collapse]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

Swings work due to 5 things. There is just a lot of window dressing that makes the swings unique for everyone else. Those things are not even remotely important enough to warrant them as things that make the swing work. 

Then explain the 5sk good and bad swing article.Why the same apparent swing produces both a good and bad shot.

[sirhacksalot]

Is this a grip club in the fingers and not in the palm thread?

[collapse]

2 minutes ago, sirhacksalot said:

Is this a grip club in the fingers and not in the palm thread?

No it's this..Making the natural fit the unnatural is the question

[Dave325]

22 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Swings work due to 5 things. There is just a lot of window dressing that makes the swings unique for everyone else. Those things are not even remotely important enough to warrant them as things that make the swing work. 

Agreed.... Unique is the operative word here. Everyone's so different in build, stature and flexibility.... Unique swings it seems are required. I use a slightly closed stance on my drive which seems to help (LSW recommendation).  Of course, I may have this all wrong with my swing anyway.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Dave325

[saevel25]

48 minutes ago, collapse said:

Then explain the 5sk good and bad swing article.Why the same apparent swing produces both a good and bad shot.

I presume you are talking about this thread. 

The basis around that thread was to debunk the myth that when someone makes a really bad shot it's because their swing varied greatly from their good shot swing. It's not true. Even on slow motion video the swings look very similar. Here is a quote from the first post in that thread. 

Quote

Golf simply has such a small margin - it requires such absolute precision - that players already are making consistent, repeatable swings.

Your goal should not be to have a "repeatable, consistent" swing. You already have that!

Your goal is to make your swing better!

Basically bad golfers are consistently bad. They do not have the correct foundation to produce consistent shots.

That being said, playing golf is about being consistent in producing more good shots than bad. You can not be consistent when you do not have the 5 keys. It is impossible to dramatically improve by focusing club face control relative to the with the swing path with out being very good at keys 1-3.

Focusing on the subtle things is trying to control key 5 relative to key 4. Yet with out the foundation of keys 1-3, you are doomed to fail. This is why mid to high handicappers can put 3-4 good holes together because they get a good run at a consistent key 4 to 5. It crumbles on them because their keys 1-3 are not good enough to sustain it. They think they just need to repeat the good swings when they are swinging nearly the same 

[collapse]

19 minutes ago, Dave325 said:

Agreed.... Unique is the operative word here. Everyone's so different in build, stature and flexibility.... Unique swings it seems are required. I use a slightly closed stance on my drive which seems to help (LSW recommendation).  Of course, I may have this all wrong with my swing anyway.

Ok Dave325....but how often do you see a pro grip the club in the lower hand first and then adjust the lead hand....note grip,not hold,grip. ....I would suggest never....this represents the common denominator that is little understood

Edited December 18, 2015 by collapse

[Dave325]

13 minutes ago, collapse said:

Ok Dave325....but how often do you see a pro grip the club in the lower hand first and then adjust the lead hand....note grip,not hold,grip. ....I would suggest never....this represents the common denominator that is little understood

I'm confused. What does the pre shot routine have to do with everyone being unique and having unique swings. I must have missed something here. And, that could be... I'm still trying to figure out this game.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Dave325

[collapse]

9 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I presume you are talking about this thread. 
http://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/80211-a-golfers-good-and-bad-swings-look-the-same-theyre-repeatable-and-consistent/

The basis around that thread was to debunk the myth that when someone makes a really bad shot it's because their swing varied greatly from their good shot swing. It's not true. Even on slow motion video the swings look very similar. Here is a quote from the first post in that thread. 

Basically bad golfers are consistently bad. They do not have the correct foundation to produce consistent shots.

That being said, playing golf is about being consistent in producing more good shots than bad. You can not be consistent when you do not have the 5 keys. It is impossible to dramatically improve by focusing club face control relative to the with the swing path with out being very good at keys 1-3. 

Focusing on the subtle things is trying to control key 5 relative to key 4. Yet with out the foundation of keys 1-3, you are doomed to fail. This is why mid to high handicappers can put 3-4 good holes together because they get a good run at a consistent key 4 to 5. It crumbles on them because their keys 1-3 are not good enough to sustain it. They think they just need to repeat the good swings when they are swinging nearly the same 

I am not

 

1 minute ago, Dave325 said:

I'm confused. What does the pre shot routine have to do with everyone being unique and having unique swings. I must have missed something here.

The confusion lies in the fact that I am talking the ignored subtlties of golf.The 5sk good & bad swing article shows that something other than the big and obvious motions must be in play.

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, Dave325 said:

I'm confused. What does the pre shot routine have to do with everyone being unique and having unique swings. I must have missed something here.

Don't worry, you are not the only one. 

[Vinsk]

41 minutes ago, collapse said:

No it's this..Making the natural fit the unnatural is the question

"The natural fit " is what you have yet to define. Showing random stills of a golfer holding a club means nothing. There is no uniform way to grip a club. So trying to find a "natural" that varies from one person to the next and make it "fit" an undefined position is futile.