Long Putts & Expectations

[natureboy]

So I've been working on my putting technique and can finally get pretty consistent true roll along my aim line (with fairly consistent sweetspot contact). However, when I make a longer stroke equivalent to 40+ feet on an 8-9 green, I tend to get some bounce before roll as the ball launches a bit then settles and rolls. I know that technically all putts 'fly' a bit before rolling, but on some of these long strokes I get pretty noticeable launch and bounce.

Is this a problem? Should I have an expectation of non-noticeable bounces on all putts or only those inside 25 feet or even less? If not 25', where's the transition?

Or should I aim to launch the ball as horizontally as possible so that the bounces it takes are at least very shallow?

[iacas]

Just now, natureboy said:

Is this a problem? Should I have an expectation of non-noticeable bounces on all putts or only those inside 25 feet or even less? If not 25', where's the transition?

Yes.

The best overall putt launch conditions are:

• +1-2° delivered loft
• +2-3° AoA

Those launch conditions will not send a ball up in the air much.

[natureboy]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes.

The best overall putt launch conditions are:

• +1-2° delivered loft
• +2-3° AoA

Those launch conditions will not send a ball up in the air much.

Even on a 40 to 50 foot putt, it won't leave the ground by more than a few millimeters?

[Dave325]

It depends on your putting stroke, but I find that I can get the loft like @iacas mentions is to position the ball just slightly forward in my stance. I found that a good way to check the bounce is on a dew drenched green in the early morning before anyone gets out. You can really see the bounce visually after each stroke. Hope this helps. 

[natureboy]

18 minutes ago, Dave325 said:

It depends on your putting stroke, but I find that I can get the loft like @iacas mentions is to position the ball just slightly forward in my stance. I found that a good way to check the bounce is on a dew drenched green in the early morning before anyone gets out. You can really see the bounce visually after each stroke. Hope this helps. 

Ball position is already forward.

 

So this isn't true, then?

Quote

 

True Roll occurs when there is no longer any skidding.

According to Frank Thomas, former technical director of the USGA, the distance from impact to pure rolling spin will be approximately 12 to 15 per cent of the distance the ball will eventually travel on a flat level putt.

 

 

Next question is is any loft actually necessary to 'lift' the ball out of its little depression in the grass of the green. If it's rolled immediately, won't it just climb up out of there? I don't imagine a few blades of grass a small fraction of the diameter of the ball really offer much resistance.

Edited December 30, 2015 by natureboy

[SavvySwede]

Dug up this video @iacas made

 

 

 

 

[natureboy]

17 minutes ago, SavvySwede said:

Dug up this video @iacas made

Cool. I would expect that ball to bounce a little before it settles into a roll, and the putter looks de-lofted to boot.

Was this a good or bad example? How long was the putt intent?

 

Potentially useful info., I am putting on a carpet that rolls 13+ that is on a hardwood floor with no pad between so it's very easy to hear the bounces / skips on very firmly struck putts.

Edited December 30, 2015 by natureboy

[mvmac]

4 hours ago, natureboy said:

However, when I make a longer stroke equivalent to 40+ feet on an 8-9 green, I tend to get some bounce before roll as the ball launches a bit then settles and rolls.

You may be "hitting" the putt rather than making a pendulum like stroke.

 

[natureboy]

8 hours ago, mvmac said:

You may be "hitting" the putt rather than making a pendulum like stroke.

Possibly. I have seen that thread already. A clarification in the post before you mentions that the 'bouncing' is more audible than visible.

So if you were to have a 60 foot level and 60 foot uphill putts (god forbid) on a dewey morning, neither ball track would show any skipping and each would be one continuous track from point of impact?

If that's not what you're saying, is the about 12% to 15% 10% of total putt length before true roll a reasonable maximum to shoot for (or is that wrong too)?

Edited December 30, 2015 by natureboy

[natureboy]

So I see ranges of launch / skid / roll to all roll from 10% - 20% of total putt length.

As a good putter would something in this range be acceptable or would you want it lower?

[iacas]

13 hours ago, natureboy said:

Even on a 40 to 50 foot putt, it won't leave the ground by more than a few millimeters?

It will, but it's not going to bounce very high. How high would a golf ball bounce if you dropped it from even two inches onto a putting green? Not much.

13 hours ago, natureboy said:

Ball position is already forward.

Perhaps too far forward if you're launching it up in the air. Too much loft and/or AoA.

13 hours ago, natureboy said:

So this isn't true, then?

It's true. In pool it's the same thing - you can hit a ball with roll, backspin, no spin, or follow (i.e. more topspin than forward roll spin). Unless you top the ball you can't do roll or "follow" spin in golf.

13 hours ago, natureboy said:

Next question is is any loft actually necessary to 'lift' the ball out of its little depression in the grass of the green. If it's rolled immediately, won't it just climb up out of there? I don't imagine a few blades of grass a small fraction of the diameter of the ball really offer much resistance.

It won't roll immediately. With faster greens there's less need to "lift the ball" out of the natural depression (which is very very shallow), and more of a desire to launch the ball with a little bit of topspin. Not enough to call it "roll" but a little topspin.

These videos weren't made to say one was a good stroke or a bad stroke. They were made to show different launch conditions:

Having the shaft leaning backward with negative AoA was the toughest/weirdest one, that's for sure.

The third one would have been better with the ball farther back to help create a bit more shaft lean. But I was trying to put a little topspin on that one (and succeeded) so I wanted a fairly high positive AoA, too.

[natureboy]

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

It will, but it's not going to bounce very high. How high would a golf ball bounce if you dropped it from even two inches onto a putting green? Not much.

Gotcha. I can't actually see the ball launching, but I hear the skips because the carpet is a thin runner over hard wood.

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

Perhaps too far forward if you're launching it up in the air. Too much loft and/or AoA.

May be. But I'm primarily talking about strokes that would go quite far even on a slow green (near max backswing). It's a nice roll for ~ 20 footers. On the long ones, while I hear the skips, does seem to be rolling by about 20% of the likely total length. Could probably try to shave that to 15%.

I had my putter lie angle flattened initially and don't think the fitter adjusted the loft to compensate (worried about the thin neck breaking) so I believe I have some extra loft to work around.

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's true. In pool it's the same thing - you can hit a ball with roll, backspin, no spin, or follow (i.e. more topspin than forward roll spin). Unless you top the ball you can't do roll or "follow" spin in golf.

Okay. That's a helpful confirmation.

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

It won't roll immediately. With faster greens there's less need to "lift the ball" out of the natural depression (which is very very shallow), and more of a desire to launch the ball with a little bit of topspin. Not enough to call it "roll" but a little topspin.

Fair point. More intent for a lower launch and shallower initial skips before roll phase on faster greens / shorter grass blades, then?

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

Having the shaft leaning backward with negative AoA was the toughest/weirdest one, that's for sure.

Have you ever played with this and/or intentionally hitting low on the face (to get vertical gear effect backspin) for slick downhill putts? Just curious in the abstract, I am not planning to incorporate in my putting even if it does bleed some speed for ticklish putts.

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

The third one would have been better with the ball farther back to help create a bit more shaft lean. But I was trying to put a little topspin on that one (and succeeded) so I wanted a fairly high positive AoA, too.

Might have had more topspin if you had caught it higher on the face like #1. There may have been some vertical gear effect offsetting the stroke intents.

 

What would you estimate (eyeball) the delivered loft at for #1? Looks nearly zero to my eye. Shaft and sole of putter seem to indicate forward lean, with face nearly perp to surface or matching slight upward AoA.

[mvmac]

10 minutes ago, natureboy said:

What would you estimate (eyeball) the delivered loft at for #1?

It's probably 1 or 2°.

[natureboy]

14 minutes ago, mvmac said:

It's probably 1 or 2°.

What's the static loft?

[mvmac]

1 minute ago, natureboy said:

What's the static loft?

I'd guess 4° but @iacas can confirm.

[natureboy]

5 minutes ago, mvmac said:

I'd guess 4° but @iacas can confirm.

That's in the range of what I expected - no need for precision.

So would you forward press less or position the ball more forward in your stance (and adjust you alignment / aim) for putting a ball from the fringe?

Edited December 30, 2015 by natureboy

[iacas]

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

Gotcha. I can't actually see the ball launching, but I hear the skips because the carpet is a thin runner over hard wood.

Go visit a SAM. Otherwise it's guessing. Or video your stroke so we can at least hear and see what you're talking about.

Good putts launch in the air and skid a bit before rolling. There's no way to avoid skidding with any sort of a working stroke.

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

Fair point. More intent for a lower launch and shallower initial skips before roll phase on faster greens / shorter grass blades, then?

More a matter of the ball not settling down as much, so not needing to be lifted as much. The other things are secondary. More result than desired intent.

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

Have you ever played with this and/or intentionally hitting low on the face (to get vertical gear effect backspin) for slick downhill putts? Just curious in the abstract, I am not planning to incorporate in my putting even if it does bleed some speed for ticklish putts.

That would be pointless. Seriously, what are you gonna gain there… 1 RPM? When you toe a wood the face flops open HUGE, plus you're hitting something 250 yards or so. Intentionally hitting the bottom of the putter face is going to have no real effect on anything. Maybe it would even be a net negative if you occasionally hit it poorly enough to negatively affect your distance control.

I never liked the idea of hitting a slick downhill putt intentionally off the toe or heel, either - just hit it softer.

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

Might have had more topspin if you had caught it higher on the face like #1. There may have been some vertical gear effect offsetting the stroke intents.

You seem to be drastically over-valuing vertical gear effect.

IIRC, the intent with Putter 1 was to hit something with no spin.

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

What would you estimate (eyeball) the delivered loft at for #1? Looks nearly zero to my eye. Shaft and sole of putter seem to indicate forward lean, with face nearly perp to surface or matching slight upward AoA.

Probably about 1°. Since it launched with basically no spin, the AoA had to be awfully close to the delivered loft.

2 hours ago, natureboy said:

What's the static loft?

3°.

Most people forward press a little at setup or deliver a little bit of shaft lean, so most putters are 3-5°, even with a forward ball position, to achieve 1-2° delivered loft.

2 hours ago, natureboy said:

So would you forward press less or position the ball more forward in your stance (and adjust you alignment / aim) for putting a ball from the fringe?

I generally put the ball a bit more forward from the fringe. I worry less about imparting a little forward spin and more about lifting the ball over the fringe. The fringe can divert the ball a lot more than slight backspin.

---

Look, @natureboy, I get that you like to think about these kinds of things. I'm similar… I get way too into the science and particulars of things before my skill level is even close to appreciating it.

But, at the same time, I'm pretty good about stepping back and not doing this stuff too much because it doesn't help you at all with your game at your current level.

You should stop worrying so much about these tiny details and start working and worrying more about your macro stuff. You should start a Member Swing thread. You should figure out which of the 3 Putting Keys you're worst at and look at the macro reasons why that's the case. Etc.

[natureboy]

34 minutes ago, iacas said:

Go visit a SAM. Otherwise it's guessing. Or video your stroke so we can at least hear and see what you're talking about.

No thanks.

34 minutes ago, iacas said:

Good putts launch in the air and skid a bit before rolling. There's no way to avoid skidding with any sort of a working stroke.

That's what I thought. Thanks. This is basically what I was looking to confirm: that some bounce & skid was to be expected...but that it shouldn't be excessive.

34 minutes ago, iacas said:

More a matter of the ball not settling down as much, so not needing to be lifted as much. The other things are secondary. More result than desired intent.

Not following. If you don't adjust intents on faster greens with shorter grass won't you launch the ball the same as on a slow green and end up with a ball that launches higher than necessary off the grass surface? Granted that might be an inconsequential difference for my game, but would an expert putter make the adjustment?

34 minutes ago, iacas said:

IIRC, the intent with Putter 1 was to hit something with no spin.

Probably about 1°. Since it launched with basically no spin, the AoA had to be awfully close to the delivered loft.

IMO, those lines don't seem to really relate to the actual angles of the shaft, sole, or face (though that's probably closest) but get your point that the relation of delivered loft to AoA is more important. The primary interest I had was that you were delofting some on this putt that appeared to launch a bit lower with low spin relative to the others.

34 minutes ago, iacas said:

I generally put the ball a bit more forward from the fringe. I worry less about imparting a little forward spin and more about lifting the ball over the fringe. The fringe can divert the ball a lot more than slight backspin.

That's good to know for the future. When I get consistent enough with contact, I may play with that. For now I'm working on chipping from the fringe to avoid the unpredictable bumps altogether.

34 minutes ago, iacas said:

---

But, at the same time, I'm pretty good about stepping back and not doing this stuff too much because it doesn't help you at all with your game at your current level.

You should stop worrying so much about these tiny details and start working and worrying more about your macro stuff. You should start a Member Swing thread. You should figure out which of the 3 Putting Keys you're worst at and look at the macro reasons why that's the case. Etc.

I have no doubt that I'm poor at all three of read, bead, & speed. That doesn't diminish my interest in learning more about good technique or impact. That approach has actually improved my ability to get better consistent roll on the intended line. It's informed my experimentation with macro technique and setup. It's helped me recognize and offset the impact of the extra loft on my putter.