Hogan Supination

[Joe Mama]

In Hogan's book, he sayS,

""Every good golfer has his left wrist in [a] supinating position at impact."

My question is thiis:  

Is the left wrist supinated BECAUSE the golfer is as "good" enough to have the grip and position and motion down from the top that fosters an AUTOMATIC supination, or is it supinated because the golfer is "good" enough to do the split-second-timed wrist and forearm manipulations necessary to make it happen at the bottom?

Do any of the golfers in this forum PLAN on supinating the left wrist?  If not, what can I do to make it happen automatically?

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2016 by Joe Mama

[saevel25]

The moment of impact is a culmination of all the good things happening (5 keys). 

What ever the wrist does at impact is something I do not think about. It just happens. I've never thought about manipulation or turning over my hands at impact. I don't think many golfers should. If other parts are good then a lot of timing is taken out of the impact. To me trying to turn over the club is a timing issue and probably needed because of a swing fault elsewhere. 

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, Joe Mama said:

In Hogan's book, he sayS,

""Every good golfer has his left wrist in [a] supinating position at impact."

My question is thiis:  

Is the left wrist supinated BECAUSE the golfer is as "good" enough to have the grip and position and motion down from the top that fosters an AUTOMATIC supination, or is it supinated because the golfer is "good" enough to do the split-second-timed wrist and forearm manipulations necessary to make it happen at the bottom?

Do any of the golfers in this forum PLAN on supinating the left wrist?  If not, what can I do to make it happen automatically?

This goes back to Bobby Jones, but as @saevel25 mentioned it is not a conscious thing. It's getting everything else right that makes it happen***.

 

***Like I know, right? I'm still working on this as well. . .

[Joe Mama]

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

The moment of impact is a culmination of all the good things happening (5 keys). 

What ever the wrist does at impact is something I do not think about. It just happens. I've never thought about manipulation or turning over my hands at impact. I don't think many golfers should. If other parts are good then a lot of timing is taken out of the impact. To me trying to turn over the club is a timing issue and probably needed because of a swing fault elsewhere. 

Exactly what I thought.  Thanks for your opinion.  Now, if only I could figure out how to get the "other parts" right.........

[mvmac]

5 hours ago, Joe Mama said:

Do any of the golfers in this forum PLAN on supinating the left wrist?  If not, what can I do to make it happen automatically?

No, if you have to manually do it coming into impact it's already too late. Need to address the pieces that are leading to the wrist extending (cupping) at impact.

[boogielicious]

10 hours ago, Joe Mama said:

In Hogan's book, he sayS,

""Every good golfer has his left wrist in [a] supinating position at impact."

My question is thiis:  

Is the left wrist supinated BECAUSE the golfer is as "good" enough to have the grip and position and motion down from the top that fosters an AUTOMATIC supination, or is it supinated because the golfer is "good" enough to do the split-second-timed wrist and forearm manipulations necessary to make it happen at the bottom?

Do any of the golfers in this forum PLAN on supinating the left wrist?  If not, what can I do to make it happen automatically?

 

 

 

My Evolvr instructor had me work on my wrist position going from A4 to A5. I would a small amount of palmar flexion, which feels like rotating a motorcycle throttle. Supination is something different. The chart below shows that. Flexion will flatten the wrist to forearm angle and close the club face slightly. Cupping or extension, opens the club face. 

Supination is rotation of the wrist to forearm angle. This is naturally going to happen as the club approaches impact. If you try to manipulate that, you will close the club face a lot. Maybe Hogan didn't quite understand the term or the term was evolving at the time he wrote the book. Supination is movement and not a single position. If he meant a flat wrist, we would call it that today. You flatten the wrist to forearm angle with flexion.

[Dave325]

3 hours ago, boogielicious said:

My Evolvr instructor had me work on my wrist position going from A4 to A5. I would a small amount of palmar flexion, which feels like rotating a motorcycle throttle. Supination is something different. The chart below shows that. Flexion will flatten the wrist to forearm angle and close the club face slightly. Cupping or extension, opens the club face. 

Supination is rotation of the wrist to forearm angle. This is naturally going to happen as the club approaches impact. If you try to manipulate that, you will close the club face a lot. Maybe Hogan didn't quite understand the term or the term was evolving at the time he wrote the book. Supination is movement and not a single position. If he meant a flat wrist, we would call it that today. You flatten the wrist to forearm angle with flexion.

Great explanation, @boogielicious!

[Joe Mama]

5 hours ago, Dave325 said:

Great explanation, @boogielicious!

 

8 hours ago, boogielicious said:

 

Supination is rotation of the wrist to forearm angle. This is naturally going to happen as the club approaches impact. 

I'm surprised to hear that.  Cannot PRONATION equally well happen "naturally"?

[saevel25]

50 minutes ago, Joe Mama said:

 

I'm surprised to hear that.  Cannot PRONATION equally well happen "naturally"?

Not for the lead arm! 

If it is the left hand and if you pronate then you are going leave the clubface way open. It's just totally counter to how the club moves in the swing. 

[Joe Mama]

10 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Not for the lead arm! 

If it is the left hand and if you pronate then you are going leave the clubface way open. It's just totally counter to how the club moves in the swing. 

Your figures show the right hand.  My comments have to do with the left wrist.  

Now, about the left wrist: for a right-handed golfer:  I think we agree that we want the back of the left hand to generally face the ground near impact.  But, unless I misunderstood you, you seemed to imply that this occurs "naturally." 

That may be true for the "good" golfers Hogan referred to, but for many other golfers, the back of the left wrist generally and "naturally" faces skyward near impact, which is not what one wants to happen, of course.

My question remains unanswered:. What grip, position at the top, and trigger downward fosters a left wrist facing the ground near impact?

[saevel25]

18 minutes ago, Joe Mama said:

Your figures show the right hand.  

It doesn't matter. Supination is turning so the palm is up. The left wrist supinates through impact.

18 minutes ago, Joe Mama said:

 I think we agree that we want the back of the left hand to generally face the ground near impact. 

Rory just before impact. Glove is not pointing down to the ground. It's more pointing at a point between the ball and the target and towards right field (if centerfield is downt he target line). 

Then he gets to a flat left wrist at impact (Key #3 in a good golf swing)

18 minutes ago, Joe Mama said:

But, unless I misunderstood you, you seemed to imply that this occurs "naturally." 

I think it happens the way it is meant to happen because other stuff is done well. I will not really call that naturally since that indicates its something someone innately does no matter what. I would say the ability to get a flat left wrist comes more easily for a golfer if they have keys #1 and Keys #2 done well. 

As for supination. The rate of that occurs depends on how the club moves, particularly it's position compared to the hands and the turn rates. Some people have a slower rate of closure than others. 

18 minutes ago, Joe Mama said:

That may be true for the "good" golfers Hogan referred to, but for many other golfers, the back of the left wrist generally and "naturally" faces skyward near impact, which is not what one wants to happen, of course.

That makes no sense. 

18 minutes ago, Joe Mama said:

My question remains unanswered:. What grip, position at the top, and trigger downward fosters a left wrist facing the ground near impact?

The left wrist shouldn't really face the ground below you. 

Another example, Adam Scott. His left wrist is pointing at the camera just before impact. 

If you want good impact position then have a good golf swing. 

If you want a flat left wrist at impact then be very good at keys #1 &  #2. 

 

[Howling Coyote]

Joe

Interesting topic.  I thought the term he used was "layoff the club".  At the top of the swing he believed that one has to layoff the club, which meant 3 things: (1) The club allowed to drop a little; (2) the upper right arm drop back into the chest; (3) lose the cup in the left wrist (supinate left wrist?).

I have tried it and it is very difficult to do, uncomfortable and causes me to hit balls sharply to the left.  However, in doing slow motion drills, I have come to the conclusion that only a small amount of wrist turn is needed and when I actually try and do it, I am over rotating.  So when I think about it, I over do it.

So as others have said, it should happen naturally.  Although it is good to know what it feels like so working it into a little drill is probably good.

[Joe Mama]

1 hour ago, Howling Coyote said:

Joe

Interesting topic.  I thought the term he used was "layoff the club".  At the top of the swing he believed that one has to layoff the club, which meant 3 things: (1) The club allowed to drop a little; (2) the upper right arm drop back into the chest; (3) lose the cup in the left wrist (supinate left wrist?).

 

That is helpful, Coyote.   Bowing the left wrist at the top loses the cupping, and this, it seems to me, would make it easier for the back of the left hand near impact to more "naturally" generally point more downward (pointing to a point on the ground somewhere between the ball and the target), rather than generally upward (pointing above the line connecting the ball to the target.  The latter would open the face near impact, which is not what wants to happen, of course.

I've  tried bowing at the top, but this usually takes my club off-plane.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Joe Mama

[Howling Coyote]

Joe

Also "lose the cup" involves getting rid of the extension shown in boogielicious diagram and during down swing rotate the left wrist in the supinated direction, but only slightly (maybe no more than 30 degrees?).  When I tried doing this I would rotate 90 degrees?  I am not sure because it is so hard to control.

[saevel25]

6 minutes ago, Joe Mama said:

That is helpful, Coyote.   Bowing the left wrist at the top loses the cupping, and this, it seems to me, would make it easier for the back of the left hand near impact to more "naturally" generally point more downward (pointing to a point on the ground somewhere between the ball and the target), rather than generally upward (pointing table the line connecting the ball to the target.  The latter would open the face near impact, which is not what wants to happen, of course.

Again the word "natural" is not really a good term to use. The position of the hands at impact is a culmination of all the other proper movements preceding them. What you are talking about is Key #3, hands inline with the ball at impact.

You have,

14 minutes ago, Joe Mama said:

 rather than generally upward (pointing table the line connecting the ball to the target. 

Which is a flip versus, 

14 minutes ago, Joe Mama said:

back of the left hand near impact to more "naturally" generally point more downward (pointing to a point on the ground somewhere between the ball and the target)

Hands more forward and at impact inline with the ball and the shoulder. 

It doesn't matter how much supination you have as long as you get the hands inline at impact or maybe some slight bowing of the wrist. The position of the wrist is still near in line at impact. 

15 minutes ago, Joe Mama said:

I've  tried bowing at the top, but this usually takes my club off-plane.

It depends on your backswing. 

[mvmac]

4 hours ago, Joe Mama said:

I've  tried bowing at the top, but this usually takes my club off-plane.

There are and have been great players with a variety of wrist conditions and shaft alignments (laid off, across the line) at the top. I typically don't think it's a good idea to "manipulate" the wrist angles, there are most likely other things at play.

4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Again the word "natural" is not really a good term to use. The position of the hands at impact is a culmination of all the other proper movements preceding them. What you are talking about is Key #3, hands inline with the ball at impact.

Right. Unfortunately the average golfer still thinks they can manually "lay it down", or bow the lead wrist or add wrist cock on the downswing. I don't want lag, I want good sequencing, "lag happens".

[Mike Boatright]

Honestly it stems from hand lead at address. Every good golfer returns to impact the same or about the same as set up given the fact most male tour pros have some hand lead with a 6 iron thus returning to impact with left wrist supination. You probably see this less with drivers of the golf ball and lpga tour pros because they are less aggressive through impact and some players have zero to negative hand lead at address with the driver.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Mike Boatright

[iacas]

59 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Every good golfer returns to impact the same or about the same as set up

Not really true. Wrist conditions (I'm talking about all three typically measured) can all vary a bit.