The handicap system

[Fourputt]

55 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

I have to disagree with your last paragraph. If we have to play around with our handicaps then surely the official handicap system must be wrong. 

I know little about the handicap system, so I have to listen to my pro/handicap secretary. We play a competition every Thursday, and I have been told that after three weeks my handicap will be reviewed. I was told that I would have to hit an average of 38 Stableford points a game to drop .4 of a point on my handicap. With all due respect how many people ever average 38 points over 3 games ? 

You misunderstood me, I think.  When we negotiate it's when playing casual rounds between friends and just part of the ribbing with each other.  We just try to get anything the other guy is willing to part with for the fun of it, usually just for a small wager or for a beer after the round.  It's just jacking around with each other, not serious.  

For tournaments, handicap is official, it works just fine when the players have maintained proper reporting and the handicap committee keeps everyone under review.  With a large membership like we have, it takes a watchdog to ensure that a few bad eggs (sandbaggers) don't spoil the omelet.  We don't have a problem with that because of the active handicap committee.

[paininthenuts]

3 hours ago, Fourputt said:

You misunderstood me, I think.  When we negotiate it's when playing casual rounds between friends and just part of the ribbing with each other.  We just try to get anything the other guy is willing to part with for the fun of it, usually just for a small wager or for a beer after the round.  It's just jacking around with each other, not serious.  

For tournaments, handicap is official, it works just fine when the players have maintained proper reporting and the handicap committee keeps everyone under review.  With a large membership like we have, it takes a watchdog to ensure that a few bad eggs (sandbaggers) don't spoil the omelet.  We don't have a problem with that because of the active handicap committee.

No, I didn't misunderstand. If the handicap system worked properly, there would be no need for the handicap to be changed for casual games. When playing casually we drop 2 shots from the winner, and add 2 to the person who came last. If their genuine handicaps reflected their ability this wouldn't be necessary. Like I said in my thread, I played a comp against players with handicaps 10 shots less than mine, and I beet them by at least 10 shots gross. It will take 3 cards to go in before anything changes, and even then they will still have handicaps far lower than mine. Something isn't right, which ever way you look at it. 

7 hours ago, Pete said:

Firstly, I commend you for wanting to play off of a lower handicap when you are winning competitions with your current hcp. As you probably know, in the UK it is more common to hear people celebrate that their handicap has increased, giving them more chance of winning, which really winds me up.

If 32 points is winning a club competition, unfortunately it looks like your home course has a SSS that is too low. I used to be a member of a club like that and scoring over 30 points often got you into the top 10, but also got you +0.1 added to your handicap. All else being equal, this should not be the case.

The best thing you can do is submit supplementary rounds to your handicap secretary. You can play up to 10 supplementary rounds per year. Arrange some rounds with other members and declare the round as supplementary (in the pro shop probably) before you play. The card counts for handicap purposes (SSS is used instead of a calculated CSS). This is not something your club can choose to do or not, anyone can do it at any affiliated club.

The latest rules on when and how you can submit them are here: http://www.englandgolf.org/library-media%5Cdocuments%5CChanges%20To%20CONGU%202014(2).pdf

To declare an SSS round the club is required to keep a book, and apparently my club has lost theirs. HONESTLY. Even then, I would be required to play off of the white tees, and that would vastly reduce my points or increase my shots, as the course is so long. 

 

Like I said, the system is badly flawed.

[Fourputt]

3 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

No, I didn't misunderstand. If the handicap system worked properly, there would be no need for the handicap to be changed for casual games. When playing casually we drop 2 shots from the winner, and add 2 to the person who came last. If their genuine handicaps reflected their ability this wouldn't be necessary. Like I said in my thread, I played a comp against players with handicaps 10 shots less than mine, and I beet them by at least 10 shots gross. It will take 3 cards to go in before anything changes, and even then they will still have handicaps far lower than mine. Something isn't right, which ever way you look at it. 

To declare an SSS round the club is required to keep a book, and apparently my club has lost theirs. HONESTLY. Even then, I would be required to play off of the white tees, and that would vastly reduce my points or increase my shots, as the course is so long. 

 

Like I said, the system is badly flawed.

It still think you don't get it.  The negotiation has nothing to do with our faith in the handicap system.  It's partly because our association only updates handicaps twice a month, and since we play with each other regularly, we often know if one of us is playing a bit off from his handicap so that an unofficial adjustment is in order.  I've been doing this when playing with friends since long before I even had a handicap.  As I said, for us it's part of the fun of the wagering.  You seem really stuck the number that the system gives you... we aren't.  We do this almost as a first tee ritual, just like some warmup stretching.  It's what we do.

[Dave2512]

Yeah it's like a side bet. We do silly things like changing the bet for every hole and decide on the on the fly if someone is having a good or bad day. I'll give you two strokes on this hole loser buys the next beer type stuff.

[Pete]

4 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

To declare an SSS round the club is required to keep a book, and apparently my club has lost theirs. HONESTLY. Even then, I would be required to play off of the white tees, and that would vastly reduce my points or increase my shots, as the course is so long. 

 

Like I said, the system is badly flawed.

It's their responsibility as an affiliated club to deal with supplementary rounds. You can play off shorter tees if you choose but you're handicap adjustment will be calculated based on the SSS of the shorter tees, which I suspect is a couple of shots less than the White tees.

i wouldn't ask them, I would tell them you are doing a supplementary round and hand them the card at the end marked and signed by another member. They have to adjust your handicap accordingly. They cannot refuse to do it.

Basically, the U.K. Handicap is a reliable representation of your competition ability and not necessarily reflective of your general playing ability.

the US handicap system is a much more accurate reflection of your all around playing ability, but less reliable than the UK system.

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, Dave2512 said:

Yeah it's like a side bet. We do silly things like changing the bet for every hole and decide on the on the fly if someone is having a good or bad day. I'll give you two strokes on this hole loser buys the next beer type stuff.

Yeah.  We'll even adjust the strokes again at the turn if something seems out of whack.

[JonMA1]

I am so ignorant on this subject, I don't even know how to phrase a question. I want to establish a handicap index for tracking progress (or lack of it). I don't belong to a club and don't compete in tournaments. 

There's an online tracking service I've joined and entered some of my scores from last year. The course where I play the majority of my rounds is a nine hole course. Here are the results (this isn't real as there are a couple scores that weren't posted):

My questions are...

1. Is the Handicap Index N: 10.7 simply half of what my regular HI might be?

2. How do I join a club if none of the courses I play have anything like this?

3. And if I were to join a club through another course, it doesn't seem like they'd be ok with me not playing at their course.

I apologize for my lack of understanding. I can't seem to grasp the basic idea through the USGA or other sites.

[Lihu]

23 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I am so ignorant on this subject, I don't even know how to phrase a question. I want to establish a handicap index for tracking progress (or lack of it). I don't belong to a club and don't compete in tournaments. 

There's an online tracking service I've joined and entered some of my scores from last year. The course where I play the majority of my rounds is a nine hole course. Here are the results (this isn't real as there are a couple scores that weren't posted):

My questions are...

1. Is the Handicap Index N: 10.7 simply half of what my regular HI might be?

2. How do I join a club if none of the courses I play have anything like this?

3. And if I were to join a club through another course, it doesn't seem like they'd be ok with me not playing at their course.

I apologize for my lack of understanding. I can't seem to grasp the basic idea through the USGA or other sites.

 

1) It looks like your approximate handicap would be about 21.4 (10.7 x 2)

2) When you join a club they give you a new GHIN number and you play rounds by ROG and post them to the GHIN number. After you post x number of rounds, you will get a provisional handicap and after twenty 18 hole rounds or 36 combined 9 hole rounds you will get an official one.

3) You can join multiple clubs, but it's better to have one GHIN if you can. Otherwise they assign multiple numbers, but you pay for them when you join a new club anyway. So, you can post to both I guess?

[newtogolf]

19 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

Solo rounds can't be posted this season. Play as many of these as you want. It's against the rules to post them. Only rounds played with other people count. 

I didn't renew my GHIN this season so it's all practice. Next season if I renew, I'll start with my 20.4 regardless of what I'm playing at. Not that I'm playing in tournaments anyway. They cost more to play in than the pay out when you factor in hotel and stuff like that unless you want to fight 3 hrs traffic before your round just getting to the course.

My club just posted the handicapping rules for the 2016 season and there wasn't any mention about posting scores as a singe.  I don't know if they are ignoring the rule or if there's the ability for clubs to make local rules regarding the posting of scores but in either case people will likely be posting scores for handicap as singles.  

[DrvFrShow]

27 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

My club just posted the handicapping rules for the 2016 season and there wasn't any mention about posting scores as a singe.  I don't know if they are ignoring the rule or if there's the ability for clubs to make local rules regarding the posting of scores but in either case people will likely be posting scores for handicap as singles.  

Section 5-1

 e. Unacceptable Scores

Scores made under the following conditions are not acceptable for handicap purposes and must not be entered in the player's scoring record:

(i) When fewer than seven holes are played;

(ii) When made on a golf course in an area in which an inactive season established by the authorized golf association is in effect;

(iii) When, as a condition of the competition, the maximum number of clubs allowed is less than 14, or types of clubs are limited as, for example, in a competition that allows only iron clubs;

(iv) When scores are made on a course with no USGA Course Rating or Slope Rating;

(v) When a player uses non-conforming clubs, non-conforming balls, or non-conforming tees; or when a player incurs a second breach of Rule 14-3. (NEW)

(vi) When a player plays alone; (NEW)

(vii) When a player ignores one or more Rules of Golf and fails to post an adjusted hole score as required under Section 4-1 and 4-2, or fails to record the appropriate penalty for a breach of rule. For example, if a player anchored the club while making a stroke during a round and did not record a penalty for doing so (See Rule 14-1b), the score would not have been played under the Rules of Golf and therefore would not be acceptable for handicap purposes. (NEW)

*** Your club should be advised of the changes. ***

[graham57]

On 31.3.2016 at 7:05 PM, paininthenuts said:

Probably one of the most controversial subjects in golf. Before I go any further, I think the principle of the handicap system is brilliant, an the idea of an inexperienced high handicapper having the opportunity of beating a top top player is great. 

I have only been playing 7 months, and after the first four months or so was given an official handicap of 28. In all honesty  this was a handicap I couldn't get near at the time, but was the highest available in the UK.  I now play to it all the time, and some days I absolutely smash it. I asked my club pro, who is also the handicap secretary, if she could reduce it, because I win most of the friendly  games, and my golfing companions are getting understandably fed up. She informed me that whilst some clubs will accept  cards from friendly games, she won't. Although I hate the formality of competitions, I have consented to play in them until my handicap is sorted. This is the crazy bit. We have a weekly competition played from the white tees, on a full Stableford basis. I won today's competition easily, putting in a score of 32 points. On gross I beet 2x18 handicappers, and 1x17 handicapper.  Because we have to play off of the white tees my point score has suffered, albeit convincingly higher than the other golfers. Just to get my handicap reduced by one shot I would have to play like an absolute pro. Of course, between us we can reduce my handicap for friendly games, but that makes an absolute mockery of the handicap system. I don't pretend to know the answer, but what we have is obviously wrong. 

I feel like I'm missing something here. On the face of it, posting a net score of 32 points in a competition would indicate that your handicap is right about where it should be. I play in Germany, and there are some variations between Germany and the UK, but basically the handicap system is the same. In our club, the only time you would win a competition "easily" with 32 points is if the weather has been terrible and no-one is playing to their normal standards (either that, or - as was pointed out above - the SSS/slope for the course is wrong). If you are beating 17- and 18-handicappers on gross points, then you seem to suffer from the same ailment as me: inconsistency, scoring several pars or even birdies during a round, but having a significant amount of holes with zero points.

In contrast to the US, in Germany only competition scores count towards handicap calculation (unfortunate for me, since - probably due to pressure, etc. - I play my worst golf in competitions!). As DaveP043 pointed out above, each point in excess of 36 would bring your handicap down by 0.4. Since you are only penalised by 0.1 if you do not play to your handicap, the system is weighted towards making your handicap reflect your better rounds, your potential, rather than your average performance.

I wouldn't worry too much about your handicap adjustment: the system in general works well, and if you stabilise your game to where you are regularly posting 36+ points in competitions, it will come down automatically.