Stubborn Steepness

[nevets88]

7 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

That all makes sense but I think the lead shoulder rotation is reversed.  I believe it should rotate counter clockwise.  

If you rotated your lead arm clockwise it would be so wide open I'm not sure how it could ever be square at impact without a vicous flip or wrist roll. 

Rotating your Lead arm counter clockwise, which bows your lead wrist, will still shallow the clubface from A4 to A5 as well as keep the clubface square. 

It looks that way when you do it in practice, without a ball, but w/a ball and even at slow tempo, that change is subtle on video and may feel slight as you go faster, it is enough to make a difference. If you practice something on video it looks like a 10 degree change from what you did no ball, slow moves, add the ball and speed and it'll be 2-3, which is still a big difference.

Here's an example of me overdoing it w/a real swing. The video should be in my swing thread. Not sure if this is the greatest example, but I found that "standing up" the shaft, well the photo is a little extreme, it could be a little more flat, on the way back makes it easier to shallow, but you have your Rickie Fowlers who go from flat to steep but stay on plane, OK, rat hole, I'm digressing. tl;dr: Easier to go from steep-ish backswing, then flatten on the way down. YMMV. BTW, when I first started playing, I sucked the clubhead in good at A2, it was pointing left of Karl Marx.

To achieve the shallowing, I did a drill @iacas gave me which is on other swing threads where from the top of the backswing, start it just a bit, like a foot, then lay down the shaft, then go. This helped me get the shallowing move, basically did it all winter hitting balls, not just mirror work. The side effect was I tended to straighten the back doing this, but I digress again. I've seen other pros I like and follow recommend something similar. George Gankas says feel like you're leaving the club behind at the top. He also has a video where the students' back is to a building wall and on the downswing, the clubhead stays on the wall.

Here's the thing with me. Even though I kind of have this move down, something wacky happens from A6-A8, something with my pivot, rotation, whatever, so shallowing is but one stage of a long trip I'm guessing.

Also, I still can swing steep on the DS, for example, I haven't had an in person lesson for awhile and worked with someone new recently and first video I was way too steep on the DS - too self-conscious. But it doesn't upset me because of all the work I did, I can bring back the shallowing in the next swing because the move/feel is familiar.

I think my problem with the shallowing move is if I go at a slow tempo, I don't engage the lower body, pivot enough so I'm dumped under - fat city.

If I add speed, I don't do enough of the shallowing and I'm steep. At least that's what I think is happening. Add to it sometimes the backswing is too long that makes shallowing harder. Those are my observations, not sure how correct they are but maybe they'll help someone.

[RandallT]

8 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

If you rotated your lead arm clockwise it would be so wide open I'm not sure how it could ever be square at impact without a vicous flip or wrist roll. 

I interpreted this arm rotation that @nevets88 mentioned to be at, or before, A5 (whereas I think you might be interpreting this rotation as being closer to impact?).

But, anyway, if I stop at A5 in my natural (i.e., incorrect and steep) swing and rotate my lead arm clockwise, the club flattens to where I am being taught it is on plane.

That made me realize that what I've subconsciously been trying to do is adjust my entire body to flatten out the swing, putting myself into odd positions (shoulders angled up, back facing the target too long, etc). No wonder I've felt so awkward.

At the top, I think I just need to keep my left wrist flat and rotate my lead arm clockwise a fraction, just enough such that at A5 the club points outside the ball. As @travisv said, I could exaggerate it a ton at first to get the hang of it.  When I look at the original pictures in the OP of me next to Grant Waite at A5, his lead forearm is rotated more clockwise than mine, I believe.

[nevets88]

There's arm shallowing and there's body shallowing. If you stand up (butt off wall, head off wall, butt and head off wall), that will shallow you out, but as you all know, straightening up has consequences, but many pros exhibit some EE as @iacas mentioned.

[pumaAttack]

Wow @nevets88 you were absolutely correct.  Thanks for the advice.  I was finally able to lay the club off properly at the range this morning.  For some reason I was fighting it and thought it had to be counter clockwise.  

Rotating clockwise and bowing that wrist keeps the club face square and shallows out the plane.   

Thanks so much for the detailed instructions on how to shallow it out!  Much appreciated. 

[RandallT]

@mchepp posted this in @ECUPirate's swing thread, and I thought I'd copy it here for posterity. 

His suggestions (many mentioned previously):

1. Lead wrist flat (every day golfer would have tough time going from cup to flat, so just get it flat at top)
2. Don't let club "cross the line" at the top. Watch where handle of club points.
3. Hand path from top should start more "in" than "down." Down will get you steep, In will naturally flatten club (according to him). Don't overdo, he says.

Thoughts on #3? I'm not sure I've seen this tip before.

Edit: Found this:

Answers my question about Tip #3, I think.

 

Edited May 15, 2016 by RandallT
Added TST Instructional video

[nevets88]

There's also these, another way of thinking about it.

 

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, nevets88 said:

There's also these, another way of thinking about it.

I like the 2nd one. I might have to try that. 

[iacas]

On May 12, 2016 at 0:51 PM, pumaAttack said:

This is illustrating the flat area that path travels, starting from A6. The flat zone is much longer in a shallow path which allows for more leeway in making contact.  

Yes a steep and shallow swing will have the same distance at impact on a center strike.  But the shallow angle allows you to have a larger "target" to hit.  If you are a few inches behind on a shallow swing you will still make decent contact.  Those few inches on a steep angle will be a chunk or top. 

It really didn't illustrate that, because the swing is an arc, and we're talking about the plane from down the line anyway.

Plus the steeper angle of attack is used by many players to help ensure crisper contact. That's why so many golfers swing over the top with big divots - it's easier to hit the ball somewhat solidly doing that over having a shallower (plane), flatter (AoA) swing.

On May 12, 2016 at 1:01 PM, pumaAttack said:

But yes, I should clarify, this illustration is to show the slope calculated at A6 and only at A6, not a continual arc.  If your hands are at the same relative height at a6, the farther away from the target your hands are, the shallower the attack angle.  

Yeah, but so?

There's a lot more to it than that. The hands actually begin traveling up at about A6 in a good golfer's swing, so that throws a monkey wrench in your graph.

I'm not elaborating much because this isn't the topic.

On May 12, 2016 at 2:35 PM, pumaAttack said:

Again you don't know that. Wrong angle.

On May 12, 2016 at 2:35 PM, pumaAttack said:

That's not a good hand position at A6. You typically see the BoC even with the back of the ball in very good players at A6. A6 is also a very "dependent" measurement - if you uncock your wrists faster, you'll arrive at A6 "earlier" than someone else.

Spoiler

On May 12, 2016 at 2:45 PM, saevel25 said:

There is more to the golf swing then just saying, Oh the shaft  at A5 in the face on view looks steeper so it will be steep at A7. That is not correct. the shaft can look steep, but it could be flatter in the DTL view. As such it would produce a shallower angle.

The golf swing occurs in three dimensions, yes.

On May 12, 2016 at 2:45 PM, saevel25 said:

The DTL is a better angle to determine steepness in the golf swing.

For this topic, you bet.

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Shallowing the club primarily involves the angle of the forearms - supination of the trail arm in transition can shallow the club, along with some changes in wrist flex, elbow trajectories, etc.

[pumaAttack]

Ahh!

I wasn't getting the hands traveling in part of this move.  Will have to work on that too.  

Good videos in this thread!

[pumaAttack]

20 hours ago, iacas said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The golf swing occurs in three dimensions, yes.

For this topic, you bet.

---

Shallowing the club primarily involves the angle of the forearms - supination of the trail arm in transition can shallow the club, along with some changes in wrist flex, elbow trajectories, etc.

 

So am I right in thinking that hinging your trail wrist back (extension) during the transition is key to shallowing out and delivering the club on a diagonal sweet spot?

Edited May 16, 2016 by pumaAttack

[iacas]

2 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

So am I right in thinking that hinging your trail wrist back (extension) during the transition is key to shallowing out and delivering the club on a diagonal sweet spot?

No. Not necessarily. For many it has more to do with the forearm angles.

[pumaAttack]

40 minutes ago, iacas said:

No. Not necessarily. For many it has more to do with the forearm angles.

So it more has to do with rotating the forearms clockwise?  When should this rotation take place?  Right at a4?  Between a3 and a4?  from a4 to a5?

I was trying to shallow the club out with wrists only and produced some ugly swings.

I am struggling with this move and just looking for the proper movement.  Thanks!

[iacas]

5 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

So it more has to do with rotating the forearms clockwise?  When should this rotation take place?  Right at a4?  Between a3 and a4?  from a4 to a5?

I was trying to shallow the club out with wrists only and produced some ugly swings.

I am struggling with this move and just looking for the proper movement.  Thanks!

It's different for everyone. Do it, and see if you do it too early or too late, and adjust from there.

[nevets88]

What timing. Trackman Maestro tweet on shallowing just recently. Oh... my... gawd... That javelin guy looks unnatural. Maybe it's the camera angle. That's some major shoulder external rotation. Maybe all the javelin announcers love him like golf announcers love Garcia. 

Another one:

 

[nevets88]

Aaaand another one on shallowing in the Instagram feed. This guy is a character, huh?

 

[RandallT]

6 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

This guy is a character, huh?

Might be the worlds worst net design too. But glad to know "it's that easy." 

But I think I'm making progress here at slower speeds. It is getting a bit ingrained, but I'm looking forward to the rain letting up so I can verify speeding up what I'm doing. I'm not naive to think I've got it licked, but I think I've got all the info I need to eventually get this issue down.

I really feel this is a complete undoing of my natural tendency, unlike a lot of other issues I've fixed so far where I was undoing a misunderstanding or fixing a lack of knowledge. This issue of steepness is at the core of how my mind was programmed to swing: DOWN at the ball, not on an inclined plane.

[nevets88]

With respect to my last post, here's a comparison with his on course swing. Different clubs but the angles are decent. He's exaggerating in the instruction video, at A5 it's pointing like a yard, probably more outside the ball. That's really shallow. In his real swing, it's a driver or 3W and still outside the ball. He must steepen the club A6 and on really fast. That's the move I don't get.

[RandallT]

Saw this in the "Change the Picture" thread.

An update on where I'm at:  two or three weeks into tackling this issue, and I'd have to put myself in the middle of this chart. This thread has helped me "Understand New Stuff." I've certainly tried the new stuff. So that's the first three stages checked off.

I'm "Doing the New Stuff" poorly at the moment, but I think less poorly than when I first started. I think another couple video lessons with my instructor, with more deliberate focus, I might declare myself at the "Do New Stuff Better" stage. 

So far, what's resonating:

1. Using the alignment stick to show where the butt of the club is pointing. Seeing that out of the corner of my eye is helpful. As @travisv said, I'll quickly put that down and try to replicate. More reps of this needed, however.
2. Staying conscious of my lead forearm rotation from the top and my right elbow in front of my seam.
3. Revisiting the notes and examples from my instructor on the position to hit at A6. I can't get there yet, but I see in my mind what I need to do.

What isn't working:

1. I'm not getting my body to A6 correctly, even though I see what needs to be done. So my slow motion to get there is awkward. More reps needed and review the video to make sure I'm on track.
2. The sensation of the club falling back behind me, or the idea of the club scraping the wall behind me. I don't know why, but the thought of what the club is doing behind my head just doesn't help me. Spacially, I get confused or something. Maybe I am better at focusing on what's in my field of vision (generally in front where I can see it, not behind me).
3. The feeling of how to get to a solid point of impact from A6. By not feeling the correct route from A6 to A7 yet, I think it makes me less confident in getting to A6.
4. My wrist positions are erratic. On the course, I was push slicing many shots, and I think my left wrist was cupping. I could just feel the club face pointing well right on many swings, unable to get a feel for how to close it up.
5. Disconnecting the idea of a flatter club plane with my shoulder plane. I feel myself standing up to flatten my shoulders, to aid in my goal of flatting the club plane. Even though I know I shouldn't. I need to keep the same shoulder steepness, and use other means to change the club plane.

Just thought I'd post an update, in case this resonates at all with anyone.