Reading Greens

[natureboy]

21 hours ago, iacas said:

A yard stick is too big.

There's a reason the Husky 9" digital level works well.

But isn't the average slope +/- 3' from the hole informative since most putts are not 9"?

is the reason that you can measure multiple spots along your putting path more accurately with the smaller length level and sum up an average?

[SavvySwede]

1 hour ago, natureboy said:

But isn't the average slope +/- 3' from the hole informative since most putts are not 9"?

is the reason that you can measure multiple spots along your putting path more accurately with the smaller length level and sum up an average?

You'd be laying the level perpendicular to line.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, natureboy said:

But isn't the average slope +/- 3' from the hole informative since most putts are not 9"?

? You don't seem to understand the purpose of a level in reading greens. A 9" putt? Huh?

As @SavvySwede said you put it perpendicular, and… you want it to measure the slope right there, and if the level is too big, it'll be lifted at one end, the other end, or maybe in the middle.

[natureboy]

43 minutes ago, iacas said:

? You don't seem to understand the purpose of a level in reading greens. A 9" putt? Huh?

As @SavvySwede said you put it perpendicular, and… you want it to measure the slope right there, and if the level is too big, it'll be lifted at one end, the other end, or maybe in the middle.

I know how to use a level, but I haven't done aimpoint. I'm usually more interested in using it to find the general fall line across a hole location. I think a 3' span might actually be more quickly informative (1.5 feet above and below the hole) than a single location or doing multiple locations.

1 hour ago, SavvySwede said:

You'd be laying the level perpendicular to line.

How so?

[SavvySwede]

38 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I know how to use a level, but I haven't done aimpoint. I'm usually more interested in using it to find the general fall line across a hole location. I think a 3' span might actually be more quickly informative (1.5 feet above and below the hole) than a single location or doing multiple locations.

How so?

You only need to know the slope of the very narrow path the ball is traveling on. Reading further away from the line isn't giving you relevant information.

[iacas]

35 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I know how to use a level…

I said "in reading greens."

A 3' level would likely span too much of an area and the slope would likely change a little. As I said, one end or the middle might be elevated slightly because of a valley or ridge. Greens aren't perfectly planar. A 9" level is a good compromise: big enough to get an accurate read, small enough not to span bumps and valleys.

Take an AimPoint class.

[No Mulligans]

I've used a level for aimpoint express practice but, it can be done without it.  For that matter I haven't used a level after the first couple of weeks of practicing aimpoint.  

I can get tuned in based on how the ball breaks compared to my expectation; it I miss below I'm underestimating the amount of slope with my feet and if I miss above the hole I'm overestimating.  That kind of fine tuning just happens naturally.  This is basically similar to the adjustment one would make based on green speed.

I suppose if I had a several week break from golf then I would break out the level.

[b101]

The great thing about AimPoint is that it removes the doubt from your mind; you just know it works. When all you have to worry about is the pace and hitting your line, you just start sinking more putts. Signing up for that clinic was definitely the best £100 I've spent on my golf game.

[natureboy]

18 hours ago, SavvySwede said:

You only need to know the slope of the very narrow path the ball is traveling on. Reading further away from the line isn't giving you relevant information.

But identifying the fall line (which is a skill I am still developing) will help me understand the expected path to begin with.

Blindly measuring slope on a straight path from my ball to the hole may not give me the information I need (~ expected amount of curve) with what I am working on.

Though I do understand there are other ways (using your feet, looking, putting a ball in an upside down frisbee on top of the hole, etc.) to estimate the average slope across the hole to find the ~ fall line, this is where I would find my kludge potentially useful. I recognize it could be done in a series of steps with the short  level, but sometimes I'm lazy and the yardsticklevel could be left as a more obvious visual reference if I wanted that.

18 hours ago, iacas said:

A 3' level would likely span too much of an area and the slope would likely change a little.

I was thinking that in most cases the USGA guidance below would apply. Plus good enough for my purposes in using it.

Quote

An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole

 

[SavvySwede]

9 minutes ago, natureboy said:

But identifying the fall line (which is a skill I am still developing) will help me understand the expected path to begin with.

Blindly measuring slope on a straight path from my ball to the hole may not give me the information I need (~ expected amount of curve) with what I am working on.

Though I do understand there are other ways (using your feet, looking, putting a ball in an upside down frisbee on top of the hole, etc.) to estimate the average slope across the hole to find the ~ fall line, this is where I would find my kludge potentially useful. I recognize it could be done in a series of steps with the short  level, but sometimes I'm lazy and the yardsticklevel could be left as a more obvious visual reference if I wanted that.

I was thinking that in most cases the USGA guidance below would apply. Plus good enough for my purposes in using it.

Quote

An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole

 

That quote is talking about picking pin placements for tournaments, not at all relevant to what @iacas was talking about.

[natureboy]

28 minutes ago, SavvySwede said:

That quote is talking about picking pin placements for tournaments, not at all relevant to what @iacas was talking about.

It's relevant to what I was talking about and why I suggested the yardsticklevel. I rarely find any placement on the practice green that violates the uniform grade part so his concern about a suspended yardstick is not an issue I'd expect to worry about, particularly for what I'd be using it for.

Is the thread about reading greens in general or just AimPoint?

[SavvySwede]

11 minutes ago, natureboy said:

It's relevant to what I was talking about and why I suggested the yardsticklevel. I rarely find any placement on the practice green that violates the uniform grade part so his concern about a suspended yardstick is not an issue I'd expect to worry about, particularly for what I'd be using it for.

Is the thread about reading greens in general or just AimPoint?

If you really want to use a "yardsticklevel", just do it then. Not sure why you need to bother stretching the meaning of random USGA quote to try justifying it.

[natureboy]

1 hour ago, SavvySwede said:

If you really want to use a "yardsticklevel", just do it then. Not sure why you need to bother stretching the meaning of random USGA quote to try justifying it.

I don't think it was random. Just because it's not a rule for everyday play doesn't mean some courses don't try to follow it for the most part.

I've actually used a yardstick as a visual aid and did not encounter noticeable - if any - lack of contact with the surface due to unevenness around the hole. Grades were generally pretty uniform within 2 feet of the hole.

I'll have to try my kludge for fun. Thanks for the idea.

Edited May 30, 2016 by natureboy

[iacas]

1 hour ago, natureboy said:

But identifying the fall line (which is a skill I am still developing) will help me understand the expected path to begin with.

You do know the fall line curves quite a bit, and that what happens at the hole has very little to do with what a putt does overall?

1 hour ago, natureboy said:

Blindly measuring slope on a straight path from my ball to the hole may not give me the information I need (~ expected amount of curve) with what I am working on.

You're working on stuff that's far less than optimal.

1 hour ago, natureboy said:

I was thinking that in most cases the USGA guidance below would apply. Plus good enough for my purposes in using it.

You should care significantly less about the area two or three feet around the hole than you seem to.

[SavvySwede]

1 minute ago, natureboy said:

I don't think it was random. Just because it's not a rule for everyday play doesn't mean some courses don't try to follow it for the most part.

I've actually used a yardstick as a visual aid on my practice green and not had the issue that was raised. I'll have to try my kludge for fun. Thanks for the idea.

I didn't say or imply courses don't follow it, it's simply not relevant to the topic.

[natureboy]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

You do know the fall line curves quite a bit, and that what happens at the hole has very little to do with what a putt does overall?

My home course putting green  experience is that the slope around the hole is usually close to the average slope for that section of the green. It's rare for me to find an 'unfair' pin placement at a location where the slope inflection is quite large or the slope extreme close to the hole.

As I am generally trying to stop the ball in or around the hole, I find knowing the fall line is useful in choosing what line to approach the hole with.

Quote

You're working on stuff that's far less than optimal.

Maybe for the level of your game. You probably take a lot of your accumulated experience and putting knowledge for granted. I've found it helpful.

Quote

You should care significantly less about the area two or three feet around the hole than you seem to.

I know the putt is falling from the first moment it's struck. Yet nevertheless I have found this approach helpful in visualizing and practicing reading. It gives me a bit of a reference point around the hole. You recommend AimPoint instead. Got it.

PP

Edited May 30, 2016 by natureboy

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, natureboy said:

My home course putting green  experience is that the slope around the hole is usually close to the average slope for that section of the green.

If that's true (which is unlikely), the "fall line at the hole" method won't travel.

9 minutes ago, natureboy said:

It's rare for me to find an 'unfair' pin placement at a location where the slope inflection is quite large or the slope extreme close to the hole.

I'm not even sure you know what you're talking about if you're using words like "unfair" in an attempted rebuttal.

9 minutes ago, natureboy said:

As I am generally trying to stop the ball in or around the hole, I find knowing the fall line is useful in choosing what line to approach the hole with.

The ball has to get near that fall line first.

If your ball is 25 feet away, the slope within two feet of the hole is largely irrelevant to getting the ball "close" to the hole.

9 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Maybe for the level of your game. You probably take a lot of your accumulated experience and putting knowledge for granted. I've found it helpful.

Take an AimPoint class. It's better than what you're doing.

I'm glad you feel what you're doing is helping you, but I could show you countless putts that break in ways you won't be able to explain with the "fall line at the hole" method, and I fear you're wasting time with something that is not much better than plumb bobbing.

Also, please quote properly. That includes the attribution line, and not just copying and pasting text into a quote.

[natureboy]

23 hours ago, iacas said:

The ball has to get near that fall line first.

Amazingly for how terrible I am at putting (and golf), I also try to take that into account too.

But per your posts, I'm clearly so ignorant I expect AimPoint is too far over my head to tackle at this stage. I probably have to become a much better golfer before I can properly understand these complex concepts.

For me, the reference at the hole helps me extrapolate back to the initial ball position in steps. It's not important to me that you think it's correct. It's simply a visual aid for the kind of mental picture per the images below for the section around the hole; which relates to the prior section, which relates to the section before that, which relates to my initial ball position.

  Corresponding to this: 

Quote

I could show you countless putts that break in ways you won't be able to explain with the "fall line at the hole" method,

Really? I had no idea that a putt could double break. I have to rethink my whole approach now, dag nab it.  

I said it was an aid to visualizing, not a 'method'. 

I pay attention to the area around the hole because that is where the ball will usually (hopefully) be slowest (other than situations like going up a ridge) and therefore prone to break more for a given slope. I am also often doing clock drills and again the yardstick provides a reference point for the 'final destination' area around the hole.

Besides, don't all greens have about 2* of slope around the hole (& extending outward) on average anyway, so knowing the particular amounts of slope between the initial location of the ball and the hole don't really matter to the outcome? 

Quote

Also, please quote properly. That includes the attribution line, and not just copying and pasting text into a quote.

First time I've seen that. I'd expect the system did that as I universally just hard return between lines of a quoted post and only copy/paste items from off the site.

<yup, the quotes were fine in the edit and as soon as I posted, the attribution was dropped. Perhaps a programming error? I'd try to correct it, but I don't see the option to edit in HTML>

Edited May 31, 2016 by natureboy