Orlando Gay Night Club Shooting

[Elmer]

8 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

We'll be fed the information they want to fit the narrative they want told.  Obama in his book spoke out against the way our government treated the Japanese in our country after Pearl Harbor and pledged to Muslims that he'd side with them should situations warrant it to avoid a similar situation happening again with them.  I also believe that is why he refuses to say Radical Islam or similar phrases. 

He also did not call Robert Lewis Dear, Jr., or the Army of God Radical Christians!!!!!

You cant have it both ways!

 

[newtogolf]

2 minutes ago, Elmer said:

He also did not call Robert Lewis Dear, Jr., or the Army of God Radical Christians!!!!!

You cant have it both ways!
 

I'm agnostic, so I want a radical called a radical regardless of what religion they subscribe to, nice try though.  

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, newtogolf said:

We'll be fed the information they want to fit the narrative they want told.  Obama in his book spoke out against the way our government treated the Japanese in our country after Pearl Harbor and pledged to Muslims that he'd side with them should situations warrant it to avoid a similar situation happening again with them.  I also believe that is why he refuses to say Radical Islam or similar phrases. 

 

1 hour ago, Elmer said:

He also did not call Robert Lewis Dear, Jr., or the Army of God Radical Christians!!!!!

You cant have it both ways!

 

1 hour ago, newtogolf said:

I'm agnostic, so I want a radical called a radical regardless of what religion they subscribe to, nice try though.  

 

Can someone explain to me the exchange that went on here?

[drmevo]

41 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

 

 

 

Can someone explain to me the exchange that went on here?

I'd have to look up the specifics, but I think @Elmer is saying Obama's not using the names of other religions when discussing other terrorists/extremists who associate themselves with said religions.  

Here is the explanation provided by NBC News:

Quote

Obama and his secretary of state, John Kerry, have said that they don't use terms like "Islamic extremism" or "radical Islam" because they believe doing so would grant undeserved religious legitimacy to terrorist movements such as the Islamic State. Citing Islam as a factor risks framing counterterrorism as a war between the West and Islam, they have said. 

"They are not religious leaders -- they're terrorists," Obama said in February. "And we are not at war with Islam. We are at war with people who have perverted Islam."

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/why-won-t-obama-say-radical-islam-n591196

i don't see anything unreasonable with that.

Edited June 14, 2016 by drmevo
Unclear pronoun

[Lihu]

3 minutes ago, drmevo said:

I'd have to look up the specifics, but I think @Elmer is saying he's not using the names of other religions when discussing other terrorists/extremists who associate themselves with said religions.  

Here is the explanation provided by NBC News:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/why-won-t-obama-say-radical-islam-n591196

i don't see anything unreasonable with that.

Ah, I see***. Thanks for the detailed explanation. I thought it was some kind of argument that @newtogolf was having with @Elmer

.

 

***I misread Obama as Osama, and thought it was something Osama wrote some time ago.

[Elmer]

25 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

 

 

 

Can someone explain to me the exchange that went on here?

 

Robert Lewis Dear, Jr, was the religous zealot who shot up a planned parenthood.
Army of God is a Christian anti-abortion group that engages in violence to stop abortions in the name God.

Basically my point was if we want the President of the United States to say "Radical Islam" every time a Muslim or Dark Skinned person shoots someone, doesn't  he have to say "Radical Christian", for PP bombing, or when a church group beats a homosexual to death in a attempt at conversion therapy????

How would that go over with the Evangelicals?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/11/30/the-radical-unrepentant-ideology-of-abortion-clinic-killers/?tid=a_inl

[jsgolfer]

1 hour ago, newtogolf said:

I'm agnostic, so I want a radical called a radical regardless of what religion they subscribe to, nice try though.  

[Lihu]

12 minutes ago, Elmer said:

Robert Lewis Dear, Jr, was the religous zealot who shot up a planned parenthood.
Army of God is a Christian anti-abortion group that engages in violence to stop abortions in the name God.

Basically my point was if we want the President of the United States to say "Radical Islam" every time a Muslim or Dark Skinned person shoots someone, doesn't  he have to say "Radical Christian", for PP bombing, or when a church group beats a homosexual to death in a attempt at conversion therapy????

How would that go over with the Evangelicals?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/11/30/the-radical-unrepentant-ideology-of-abortion-clinic-killers/?tid=a_inl

Ah, I see your point.

Most Christian groups completely disavow any relationship to these acts of violence and would likely prefer these criminals not be referred to as Christian.

It's up to the Muslim communities to let everyone know that groups like ISIS are not truly Muslim or Islamic.

[drmevo]

12 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Ah, I see your point.

Most Christian groups completely disavow any relationship to these acts of violence and would likely prefer these criminals not be referred to as Christian.

It's up to the Muslim communities to let everyone know that groups like ISIS are not truly Muslim or Islamic.

They have, and have been, for a long time - since 9/11 at least.

Edited June 14, 2016 by drmevo

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, drmevo said:

They, have, and have been, for a long time - since 9/11 at least.

Then Obama should simply use the name "Terrorist Organization" which would lend them no legitimate cause to stand by.

[mcanadiens]

8 minutes ago, Lihu said:

It's up to the Muslim communities to let everyone know that groups like ISIS are not truly Muslim or Islamic.

Don't know about So. Cal, but the few mosques around here do make an effort to denounce these sort of things every time it happens. On a level, I feel a little badly for them. Forever having to reach out to the various local media outlets to offer an immediate condemnation of the activities of these people.

Gotta remember that in most places, Muslims are a very small minority. It isn't always easy for them to make their voice heard by the masses.

[Lihu]

6 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Don't know about So. Cal, but the few mosques around here do make an effort to denounce these sort of things every time it happens. On a level, I feel a little badly for them. Forever having to reach out to the various local media outlets to offer an immediate condemnation of the activities of these people.

Gotta remember that in most places, Muslims are a very small minority. It isn't always easy for them to make their voice heard by the masses.

It's pretty large here, but so are all groups. Most people in my area don't think of Muslims as potential threats, we work, shop and eat with people of Muslim beliefs daily. One of my coworkers is Muslim, and I only just remembered that while writing this post. I don't think of them any different than anyone else.

The term "Terrorist Organization who call themselves ISIS" is probably more accurate.

[drmevo]

7 minutes ago, Lihu said:

It's pretty large here, but so are all groups. Most people in my area don't think of Muslims as potential threats, we work, shop and eat with people of Muslim beliefs daily. One of my coworkers is Muslim, and I only just remembered that while writing this post. I don't think of them any different than anyone else.

The term "Terrorist Organization who call themselves ISIS" is probably more accurate.

I think that's why he had started calling them Daesh.  Not sure if he still does or not.

[Lihu]

5 minutes ago, drmevo said:

I think that's why he had started calling them Daesh.  Not sure if he still does or not.

It's better not to incite them. It's probably better to just call them a "Terrorist Organization who call themselves ISIS"

Better not to give them any sense of legitimacy or any reason to group together in a "common cause". They should be treated and referred to as the bullies and terrorists they are in their own nations.

[newtogolf]

I'm okay if Obama just calls them ISIS, their rightful name, but he won't do that either.  

You can't ignore that Sharia Law promotes the killing of homosexuals and mistreatment of women and is practiced by at least 50% of the Muslim population outside the US and 30% within the US.  

A story ran last week where a Pakistan mother murdered her daughter by burning her while alive because she married someone she didn't approve of.  There are fundamental differences in their religion and their methods of handling non-followers than what we deem acceptable in the US.  

We have people here fighting for the rights of LGBT community and women who then want to sympathize with those who practice Sharia Law, I can only assume they have no comprehension of what Sharia Law is.  

Muslims who do not support these actions and don't follow Sharia Law are the ones that need to speak out and help stop those who do.  Not every person in Germany was a Nazi, but if they didn't fight to stop the Nazi movement they couldn't be shocked when the world questioned their loyalty to Hitler.  Silence isn't sufficient.  

I'll be the first person to condemn any person for using religion as an excuse to kill others, no matter what religion it is.  

[drmevo]

12 minutes ago, Lihu said:

It's better not to incite them. It's probably better to just call them a "Terrorist Organization who call themselves ISIS"

Better not to give them any sense of legitimacy or any reason to group together in a "common cause". They should be treated and referred to as the bullies and terrorists they are in their own nations.

Nah, I disagree. We shouldn't bend to their will. 

5 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I'm okay if Obama just calls them ISIS, their rightful name, but he won't do that either.  

You can't ignore that Sharia Law promotes the killing of homosexuals and mistreatment of women and is practiced by at least 50% of the Muslim population outside the US and 30% within the US.  

A story ran last week where a Pakistan mother murdered her daughter by burning her while alive because she married someone she didn't approve of.  There are fundamental differences in their religion and their methods of handling non-followers than what we deem acceptable in the US.  

We have people here fighting for the rights of LGBT community and women who then want to sympathize with those who practice Sharia Law, I can only assume they have no comprehension of what Sharia Law is.  

Muslims who do not support these actions and don't follow Sharia Law are the ones that need to speak out and help stop those who do.  Not every person in Germany was a Nazi, but if they didn't fight to stop the Nazi movement they couldn't be shocked when the world questioned their loyalty to Hitler.  Silence isn't sufficient.  

I'll be the first person to condemn any person for using religion as an excuse to kill others, no matter what religion it is.  

I get your point about Sharia Law and agree it has way more support than many people care to admit, but where do you get those figures?

Also, they WANT to be called ISIS.  Better to call them a name they hate, no? 

Edited June 14, 2016 by drmevo

[Braivo]

5 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

You can't ignore that Sharia Law promotes the killing of homosexuals and mistreatment of women and is practiced by at least 50% of the Muslim population outside the US and 30% within the US.  

This is a very important fact. 

5 minutes ago, drmevo said:

Nah, I disagree. We shouldn't bend to their will. 

Agreed. It's a losing bet every time. 

[Lihu]

 

6 minutes ago, drmevo said:

Better to call them a name they hate, no? 

IDK, it seems like by calling them something they all hate would embolden them to their "cause".