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My Swing (deason)

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Originally Posted by deason

I've added a video doing the hit and stop drill

If you're trying to do my drill (green shirt), you're doing it wrong. It's not an easy drill and not something you can just go out and get right immediately.

Analyzr Image Export.jpg

Note that I haven't read this thread much, I skimmed the lengthy post above, and saw this "hit and stop" and so I'm posting this in case it helps.

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Like Erik said in the above post, you aren't doing it yet, but that's okay, because like he also said, this drill is hard to get right away.

A few quick filming tips:

1) Don't wear dark colors when filming your swing because it makes it very difficult to see your body parts and motions in the swing. In this case, we can still work with it, but in the future, if possible, try to wear lighter colors. I know it's cold out though, so it's understandable you'd be wearing dark.

2) The sun in the background only compounds this problem, but you knew that one already

___________

OK, so when you're actually hitting the ball, you aren't doing what the drill calls for you to do at all. On a scale of like 1 to 100 in terms of how well you are doing it, I'd give you like an 8 (not good), but hey, you're at least "on the scoreboard," so there's that! But yea, you really gotta be pre-setting the hips a lot more forward and leaving them there when you swing your arms back. This is very important. Don't shift your hips back when swinging back. Leave like 80-90% of your weight on that front foot at address.

Now, there are a couple positives here. During your practice swing, you got something fairly close to where you want to be:

You at address. When you do this drill, pre-set the hips forward. Don't start at your normal address position.

Picture 2.png

Pic 2: Your practice swing is looking a lot better. Look at this: Your hips are forward and you have the clubhead behind your hands here with some spine tilt. Your left knee has moved beyond where your left foot slightly. More of this.

Picture 10.png

Pic 3: More of your practice swing. You approach the imaginary ball with hands leading and the clubhead still "lagging" behind. Palmar flexing will increase this even more.

Picture 3.png

Pic 4: You pass through imaginary impact with the hands still ahead of the club. Great! More of this. Keep practicing these practice swings and exaggerate everything even more. Practicing in slow motion is the key towards making changes in golf. So hit less balls and do more slow motion movements.

If there's one thing you do need more of here, I think, is raising the handle more. What I mean by that is not pushing the handle of club forward or back, but up. At impact, your hands and the handle of the club should be higher at impact than they were at address. If you struggle hitting the ball doing this drill during your next session, lean the shaft more forward and raising the handle up at address. This is a draw piece.

Picture 4.png

Pic 5: Your practice follow through: Arms are straight, no flipping, hips still forward, nice tilt still. This stuff looks good, man! I know it's just a practice swing, but it's a start.

Picture 5.png

Pic 6: Unfortunately, once you put a ball there and take an actual swing, it all reverts back. Your elbows are coming apart significantly and that's a universal reason for why a lot of players flip at impact. Squeezing them together maintains wrist cock and palmar flexion much, much longer into your downswing. If you pre-set the hips forward at address (start doing that!), you don't have to think about the hips going forward because, well, they are already forward. You can just focus on elbows together and palmar flexion. So do that next time. Set the hips forward at address.

The black clothing makes it harder to see your elbow positions, but can you see how they are too far apart here? Squeeze 'em together.

Picture 7.png

Pic 7: Flipping with the hips not going forward and no spine/axis tilt at all. Hopefully you read and reviewed those links I provided over why this stuff is important! Understanding is step one in the process so you know "why" you are practicing this stuff.

Picture 8.png

Pic 8: Look how far back your hips are. This is why you have to pre-set them well forward. They are not forward here at all.

Picture 9.png

So in review:

Your practice swing looks much, much better in this video, but clearly as Erik said, you aren't doing the drill close to correct when you actually hit a ball. That's okay because that's normal because the drill is really hard (it's like the Jump Program in the Matrix. Everyone falls the first time ).

OK, I'm just lightening the mood with a joke. I'm not actually Morpheus here (that's Erik ).

Making changes doing your full swing is impossible, or close to impossible, for most players. If you could, film this drill again, with your slow motion practice swings before you actually go and hit some balls (film those too).

Just to use an example of someone exaggerating this drill, I'm going to use me here. Here I am practicing this drill using a slow-motion swing. The camera setting is also in slow motion.

I have my hips pre-set well forward. On the downswing, I'm exaggerating a lot of pieces: my elbow's being squeezed together, palmar flexing my lead wrist well into the follow through , straight arms, and then straightening my legs and extending about impact (I'm a little late with this one, but that's okay for the sake this post). I just want you see another version of this drill being done.

When you actually bring the ball into play, you are going to struggle. I hit so many fat, thin, and crappy shots doing it, it's ridiculous. Remember: The end goal with this drill, ball flight wise, is to feel great contact with a shallow divot and a ball that compresses well and draws slightly. If you are using a 7-iron, the ball will fly about 50-70% of your normal distance.

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And just one more set-up thing I noticed. It looks like you are standing with the hands a bit too close to your body at address. Just sort of let them hang naturally with a bit more space between your hands and your thighs.

Picture 14.png

Picture 12.png

Edit : One more set-up change. Flare out your feet address to set yourself up for the correct feet movement of the downswing.

Picture 15.png

350x438px-LL-0d96f7a8_Picture1.png

Notice your feet are more straight and in the pro example, they are flared outward? This will help you on the downswing, with the right foot banking inward as you push the hips forward. Again, you have to start pre-setting your hips forward when doing the weight-forward drill, but start flaring your feet out because that will help you bank your foot and extend.

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Thanks for summarising, the practice swings are definitely a positive but as you've said, and i've seen Pic 6 (a real shot) and barely a real shot under pressure goes back to 28 HCP territory, i mean its awful! So why? It's annoying, it's like an itch I can't scratch! I completely understand about the hips, maybe i'm not doing it enough, when in my head it feels like i'm doing it lots.

As for setting hips forward, do you mean at address of the ball?

And also, I knew I was doing the drill wrong, but with the hit/stop drill maybe you could do a step by step on how to get into the right positions? or is there one out there already?

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Originally Posted by deason

Thanks for summarising, the practice swings are definitely a positive but as you've said, and i've seen Pic 6 (a real shot) and barely a real shot under pressure goes back to 28 HCP territory, i mean its awful! So why?

This is common. Everyone has a better practice swing than real swing. Your practice swing is improving though.


Originally Posted by deason

I completely understand about the hips, maybe i'm not doing it enough, when in my head it feels like i'm doing it lots.

You aren't doing it at all for both the drill and your actual swing. But right now, you need to start doing it at address for the drill. Set the hips well forward.

You need to feel complete exaggeration when making any change to your golf swing. This is also true for everyone.


Originally Posted by deason

As for setting hips forward, do you mean at address of the ball?


Yes. 100% yes.


Originally Posted by deason

And also, I knew I was doing the drill wrong, but with the hit/stop drill maybe you could do a step by step on how to get into the right positions? or is there one out there already?


Darn, I thought I was doing that already ....

1. Address the ball: a) feet flared out b) hands ahead of the ball, shaft leaning forward c) weight 55-60% on your front foot

2. From address, set your hips well forward so your spine is tilting to the right. Your head stays in place. Your left shoulder will be higher than your right as a result of the hips being forward and your resulting spine tilt.

Picture 1.png

3. Swing back, like in the video. You won't be able to go all the way back because of the hips pre-set at address. Make a half-swing.

4. When you start the downswing a) feel palmar flexion of your lead wrist all the way into your follow through like in the video of me doing the drill:

Hips pushed well forward, lead wrist bowed or palmar flexed into the follow through (red lines on my wrist), spine tilt as a result of the hip slide (yellow lines), right (trail) foot banking along with my hip slide. Also note my straight arms and how close together I have kept my elbows throughout the swing.

Picture 2.png

To boil it down to just two things for you, like I said previously: 1) Pre-set the hips at address and 2) Only think about palmar flexing the lead wrist throughout the swing if you can only think about one thing when actually swinging. When doing a slow motion practice swing though, try to incorporate a bit more into it if you can.

Stop the swing where I stopped my swing in this above image. Don't try to make a full follow-through. You may feel like you are stopping your swing just after impact in order to be able to stop here.


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Deason, I fear you've been given way too much info at once, however good it may be. Before anything, the swing is way too flat around your body, and it can cause you to get stuck, with poor contact resulting. Practice in front of a mirror, and get to where Vijay is at the top. He might be a more extreme example, as he's way up there, but he's certainly not stuck behind himself. Once you can get that down, you'll be swinging on a good plane, and from there you can do all the other drills.

You want to feel more upright on the back swing, and less low and flat. Hope that helps.

memorial_2k9_training_vijay_singh.jpg

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Originally Posted by walk18

Deason, I fear you've been given way too much info at once, however good it may be. Before anything, the swing is way too flat around your body, and it can cause you to get stuck, with poor contact resulting. Practice in front of a mirror, and get to where Vijay is at the top. He might be a more extreme example, as he's way up there, but he's certainly not stuck behind himself. Once you can get that down, you'll be swinging on a good plane, and from there you can do all the other drills.

You want to feel more upright on the back swing, and less low and flat. Hope that helps.


I'm showing deason how to hit a draw and Vijay plays a fade, so he's not really a good example here. His hands are also well above the plane in that photo (two plane swing) and I'm showing deason how to use a one plane, centered pivot. If you want to show him a two plane swing you should explain that more than just saying "do this."

Yes, his backswing needs work though I agree, but I'm trying to get his weight and handle forward first.

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Hi,

Yes you are right, I have been given information overload, however thats all easily addressed by it being kindly put on this post for reference!

In my smallest knowledge of this game, I beleive that Baby steps and reps is the only real way in my view to work on a golf swing. It is the same with another muscle memory based sport I used to do (Bowling).

As for the Vijay example I beleive two/one plane is based on your physique, my physique is not anywhere near Vijay, and I also think I would way overswing trying to get my hands higher.

Looking at my back foot in video footage, I do beleive I need to get the weight more forward.

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Originally Posted by deason

Hi,

Yes you are right, I have been given information overload, however thats all easily addressed by it being kindly put on this post for reference!

In my smallest knowledge of this game, I beleive that Baby steps and reps is the only real way in my view to work on a golf swing. It is the same with another muscle memory based sport I used to do (Bowling).

As for the Vijay example I beleive two/one plane is based on your physique, my physique is not anywhere near Vijay, and I also think I would way overswing trying to get my hands higher.

Looking at my back foot in video footage, I do beleive I need to get the weight more forward.



Look again at the Singh image. Think of getting into that position as simply a drill, not as your way to swing naturally. Most decent players I've seen fall into a region somewhere between Singh's high hands and very vertical swing (think also Colin Montgomerie - both decent players in their own right) and your right elbow welded to the torso and almost horizontal backswing. If I had to guess, and really that's all I'm qualified to do, I'd say you were given a drill by your instructor to feel more "connected" and you've taken that drill and run with it. Not saying you can't play decent golf with that backswing, but if I had my right elbow in that position during my swing I'd lose some distance. Also, try to take a divot with your irons that bottoms a few inches beyond the ball. Until you're doing that consistently, everything else is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

Quote:

Originally Posted by deason

Hi,

Yes you are right, I have been given information overload, however thats all easily addressed by it being kindly put on this post for reference!

In my smallest knowledge of this game, I beleive that Baby steps and reps is the only real way in my view to work on a golf swing. It is the same with another muscle memory based sport I used to do (Bowling).

As for the Vijay example I beleive two/one plane is based on your physique, my physique is not anywhere near Vijay, and I also think I would way overswing trying to get my hands higher.

Looking at my back foot in video footage, I do beleive I need to get the weight more forward.

Look again at the Singh image. Think of getting into that position as simply a drill, not as your way to swing naturally. Most decent players I've seen fall into a region somewhere between Singh's high hands and very vertical swing (think also Colin Montgomerie - both decent players in their own right) and your right elbow welded to the torso and almost horizontal backswing. If I had to guess, and really that's all I'm qualified to do, I'd say you were given a drill by your instructor to feel more "connected" and you've taken that drill and run with it. Not saying you can't play decent golf with that backswing, but if I had my right elbow in that position during my swing I'd lose some distance. Also, try to take a divot with your irons that bottoms a few inches beyond the ball. Until you're doing that consistently, everything else is irrelevant.


Sean, I'm trying to stick to priorities here. And didn't you complain endlessly about someone changing planes (someone's giving one plane swing advice to a two planer!) a few weeks ago?...

How do you get "the club to bottom out a few inches in front of the ball?" It doesn't help IMO to just say that and then walk away from the conversation. The tips I'm giving him will get that to happen. Now, it's certainly possible he didn't know that to begin with, in which case, you mentioning it is definitely important. Good players hit ball first, then the ground.

As far as the high hands thing, if deason gets his hands that high, they will be well above the plane and he'll have to make even more compensations to get to the ball. Right now, it's not even close to the priority change he has to be making, which is getting his weight forward (and not shifting his hips backward on the backswing) and getting his handle forward (no more flipping). The backswing needs work certainly, but not really right at this moment. Hands that high and above the plane make it harder to swing from in-to-out, especially for him.

Don't get me wrong -- I always appreciate conversing with you, but I think there needs to be a connection here between the tips we give out and some sort of tangible explanation why we're giving those tips.

Now, I certainly could be wrong. I concede that. But my plan here is to address the backswing once he got video down of him getting his weight and handle forward and him coming on here saying some positive things about the change in his ball flight.

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Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Sean, I'm trying to stick to priorities here. And didn't you complain endlessly about someone changing planes (someone's giving one plane swing advice to a two planer!) a few weeks ago?...

How do you get "the club to bottom out a few inches in front of the ball?" It doesn't help IMO to just say that and then walk away from the conversation. The tips I'm giving him will get that to happen.

If deason gets his hands that high, they will be well above the plane and he'll have to make even more compensations to get to the ball. Right now, it's not even close to the priority change he has to be making, which is getting his weight forward (and not shifting his hips backward on the backswing) and getting his handle forward (no more flipping). I'm addressing those issues head on with the concrete information.

Don't get me wrong -- I always appreciate conversing with you, but I think there needs to be a connection here between the tips we give out and some sort of tangible explanation why we're giving those tips.

Now, I certainly could be wrong. I concede that. But my plan here was to address the backswing once he got video down of him getting his weight and handle forward and him coming on here saying some positive things about the change in his ball flight.


It's a feeling that's all. I put a towel under both armpits during a drill with my instructor, but I don't hit the ball that way. I also stretch in any number of ways during warmup and I also feel that Vijay's swing is very 1970s when the big power fade was in vogue. If general consensus is that the OP is on the right track, then I'm certainly not qualified to judge

As far as getting the divot to bottom out beyond the ball, it involves precisely getting the divot to bottom out beyond the ball. Seriously that's all it is. First you need to make a divot. Then you need to move it forward relative to the ball, whether that means leading with the hands more or just changing ball position at setup, it's not really that difficult to get a feel of in slow motion at least. It's a first step.

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Originally Posted by deason

Hi,

Yes you are right, I have been given information overload, however thats all easily addressed by it being kindly put on this post for reference!


Yes, this is my belief as well. A great place to overload someone with information is through the written word, when they are sitting down in the privacy of their own home, or at the very least, while in a comfy chair. And yes, using them as a reference is definitely going to be helpful. I mean, I had to read about the hip slide over and over again before I understood what was going on there, back when I first heard about it.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Sean, I'm trying to stick to priorities here. And didn't you complain endlessly about someone changing planes (someone's giving one plane swing advice to a two planer!) a few weeks ago?...

How do you get "the club to bottom out a few inches in front of the ball?" It doesn't help IMO to just say that and then walk away from the conversation. The tips I'm giving him will get that to happen.

If deason gets his hands that high, they will be well above the plane and he'll have to make even more compensations to get to the ball. Right now, it's not even close to the priority change he has to be making, which is getting his weight forward (and not shifting his hips backward on the backswing) and getting his handle forward (no more flipping). I'm addressing those issues head on with the concrete information.

Don't get me wrong -- I always appreciate conversing with you, but I think there needs to be a connection here between the tips we give out and some sort of tangible explanation why we're giving those tips.

Now, I certainly could be wrong. I concede that. But my plan here was to address the backswing once he got video down of him getting his weight and handle forward and him coming on here saying some positive things about the change in his ball flight.


Just noticed that comment. Endlessly? I think I commented once in that thread then was attacked by someone for having a different opinion. Sort of like this has the potential to become. The OP posted his swing on a public forum and solicited opinions. If he has said somewhere that he is only interested in yours, and that he has his chosen you as his mentor, then I aplogize to the OP and will ignore this thread.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

It's a feeling that's all. I put a towel under both armpits during a drill with my instructor, but I don't hit the ball that way. I also stretch in any number of ways during warmup and I also feel that Vijay's swing is very 1970s when the big power fade was in vogue. If general consensus is that the OP is on the right track, then I'm certainly not qualified to judge

As far as getting the divot to bottom out beyond the ball, it involves precisely getting the divot to bottom out beyond the ball. Seriously that's all it is. First you need to make a divot. Then you need to move it forward relative to the ball, whether that means leading with the hands more or just changing ball position at setup, it's not really that difficult to get a feel of in slow motion at least. It's a first step.


That's why I like conversing with you because you give me great perspective on the golf world and the changes its gone through. I do agree that using a feeling, whether biomechanically correct or not or whatever, is great if it exaggerates the exact opposite of that player's current flaw. But I just think it's too much to think about if he already has two glaring priorities of getting his weight and handle forward by impact so he can use his golf clubs the way they've been designed to be used.

Actually, I remember us discussing the idea in your second paragraph, and I went and did that and it worked well for me. That being said, I was farther ahead in the game at that point, where I already had forward shaft lean at impact and my weight getting forward. In that case, I just told myself, "Look, Sean just says to go and do it." So I tried it, and it worked for me.

To your last point, I would not change the ball position because that is a quick fix. High handicappers put the ball back in their stance because they flip at it and leave their weight back, the very two things I'm trying to eradicate here. I understand if a high handicap makes this fix during a round just so he can hit the ball that day, but beyond that, it's not going to work long term.

I also noticed that players who can get the weight and handle forward at impact will make the mistake of putting the ball more back in their stance if they hit one or two fat by accident, reverting back to their old high handicap setup fix tendencies. Of course, this invariably makes them hit too down and out at the ball and they start to hook it (put me in this camp at one time). The actual fix for me here was to keep the ball forward and just trust that I was going to make a positive swing at it.

So for now, I'd say for deason to keep the ball in the middle of his stance. But certainly if anything, I want him to start hooking this ball, so he can begin to see how weight forward/handle forward produces draw spin.

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Agree on the divot analogy, this is classic Nicklaus theory. But as the video footage shows i'm at best parallel to hands and ball and rarely hands before ball to get some decent compression.

Explain to me why Kuchar, Hogan, Byrd all have had successes with such a flat swing? Would you recommend that change?

BTW I don't want this post where i'm gaining some advice to become a one/two plane argument.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

Just noticed that comment. Endlessly? I think I commented once in that thread then was attacked by someone for having a different opinion. Sort of like this has the potential to become. The OP posted his swing on a public forum and solicited opinions. If he has said somewhere that he is only interested in yours, and that he has his chosen you as his mentor, then I aplogize to the OP and will ignore this thread.


Sean, I'm joking!

The primary path I've chosen to go here with this guy is the standard opening path for a guy who fights a weak push, leaves his weight back, and dorsiflexes like crazy on both the backswing and downswing.

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Originally Posted by JetFan1983

That's why I like conversing with you because you give me great perspective on the golf world and the changes its gone through. I do agree that using a feeling, whether biomechanically correct or not or whatever, is great if it exaggerates the exact opposite of that player's current flaw. But I just think it's too much to think about if he already has two glaring priorities of getting his weight and handle forward by impact so he can use his golf clubs the way they've been designed to be used.

Actually, I remember us discussing the idea in your second paragraph, and I went and did that and it worked well for me. That being said, I was farther ahead in the game at that point, where I already had forward shaft lean at impact and my weight getting forward. In that case, I just told myself, "Look, Sean just says to go and do it." So I tried it, and it worked for me.

To your last point, I would not change the ball position because that is a quick fix. High handicappers put the ball back in their stance because they flip at it and leave their weight back, the very two things I'm trying to eradicate here. I understand if a high handicap makes this fix during a round just so he can hit the ball that day, but beyond that, it's not going to work long term.

I also noticed that players who can get the weight and handle forward at impact will make the mistake of putting the ball more back in their stance if they hit one or two fat by accident, reverting back to their old high handicap setup fix tendencies. Of course, this invariably makes them hit too down and out at the ball and they start to hook it (put me in this camp at one time). The actual fix for me here was to keep the ball forward and just trust that I was going to make a positive swing at it.

So for now, I'd say for deason to keep the ball in the middle of his stance. But certainly if anything, I want him to start hooking this ball, so he can begin to see how weight forward/handle forward produces draw spin.



Good points - I didn't really look too closely at his current ball position and if moving it back is exaggerated then that's not good either. I probably have my ball farther ahead than is recommended in the old text books because I don't move it around too much. Perhaps my thought about Deason's swing are one of an initial general impression. His backswing does not seem natural. Not wrong per se, but somewhat contrived. There's not enough foward movement of the hips and too much with the upper torso. What at first seems like a very simple back and through, albeit awkwardly flat in my opinion , has a lot going on.

Keep in mind the player has 3 years experience, obviously plays somewhere with no offseason, which is like 5-6 years of Canadian golf experience, has take lessons, and seems to be trying to help the ball into the air with a flipping motion. Dude needs an old fashioned forward press and needs to move some earth after impact.

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Deason,

Jetfan has given me some pretty solid advice (he is not the author of this advice, nor does he claim to be) that has really made a difference in my contact and ball flight.

Other info on this site you should really look at is mvmac's thread on " a centered pivot " and the thread called " biggest secret SLIDE YOUR HIPS ". Trust me, these two threads contain GOLD. These concepts have gone a LONG way towards fixing some of my major flaws. Still lots of work to do but learning to push your hips forward really makes a difference, makes it easier to move your divot forward and not come over the top. I would hazard to say that you cannot be too aggressive with your hip slide!

As far as one-plane and two-plane you need to understand the difference and realize that the two philosophies work great (as is evident in the amount of championships won by both styles) but also clash with each other. Don't mix the two, figure out which way you want to go and stick with it.

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