Need advice on replacement HVAC system

[14ledo81]

7 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

Good, this makes me feel better, thank you. I do believe I can handle most of this job. I'm always looking to learn new stuff anyways. It's one of the things that drives my wife crazy... so why stop here! (lol) 

I agree with you when it comes to if it ain't broke don't fix it. I don't think I'm going to touch the downstairs system yet. And for the furnace upstairs I'll leave it alone for now as well. I think I'll try to tackle just the upstairs AC system for now.

I also agree that I will not be handling the refrigerant. I'll have someone certified/licensed to do that. In NC (and maybe everywhere?) I think there's actually a law against handling refrigerant even if it's on your own property and you own the unit. You'd know more about it than I would, but I think it has something to do with the greenhouse emissions and stuff and the refrigeration certified folks have been "informed by the EPA" of the risks and such and to minimize release to the environment.

What's actually interesting is that my upstairs unit has very good pressures on the refrigerant side. He says it's not leaking or anything but he did say the coil in the attic (inside) is in "pretty bad condition." He said the compressor in the outdoor condenser is tripping out on overload (which was my original diagnosis anyways, because it would kick out HARD [loud] often during a hot day even without reaching set point inside on the tstat). I would hear it happen when I was doing yard work and stuff. Also, he said the refrigerant return line coming off the condenser should be cold, and it wasn't. 

I'll need to have something figured out in the 1-2 months before the outside temps drop below ~60F and I won't be able to test the system if I do choose to install it. Otherwise I may just put it off until early Spring (and more time to get my ducks in a row).

I'm going to do a lot of research and maybe even buy an HVAC book. I feel like I can do this work myself for under $5k including all of the extraneous parts/pieces I'll need to make the connections. That's a long jump away from $12k. 

 

Couple things relating to the bolded portions above:

It is not just the fact that you need to be licensed to handle refrigerant (you are spot on with the EPA certification), but there is expensive tools that are necessary.  Vacuum pumps, gauges, scales, etc.  You may want to look into who would do this for you before you start.  Our company would not be interested in completing a homeowner "DIY" job.  Way to much potential for conflict when something does not work right.

The cold line (larger, suction line) is actually moving in the direction of the condenser.  The warm line (smaller, liquid line) is actually moving the refrigerant in the direction of the furnace/A-coil.  Sounds counter-intuitive, and many people believe the condenser is actually "making" cold and moving it into the house.  Not the case.

[jkelley9]

5 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

Couple things relating to the bolded portions above:

It is not just the fact that you need to be licensed to handle refrigerant (you are spot on with the EPA certification), but there is expensive tools that are necessary.  Vacuum pumps, gauges, scales, etc.  You may want to look into who would do this for you before you start.  Our company would not be interested in completing a homeowner "DIY" job.  Way to much potential for conflict when something does not work right.

The cold line (larger, suction line) is actually moving in the direction of the condenser.  The warm line (smaller, liquid line) is actually moving the refrigerant in the direction of the furnace/A-coil.  Sounds counter-intuitive, and many people believe the condenser is actually "making" cold and moving it into the house.  Not the case.

Oh yea, I'll absolutely find someone (if I can) to do the refrigerant before I do anything lol. I think that's where I'll have a co-worker help me out if he's willing and able to. 

Also, neither line was cold. I believe he said I had a 9F temp difference from the lines and I believe he said I should see a minimum of 13F difference. 

[jkelley9]

@14ledo81 how difficult is the process to get certified for handling refrigerant? I believe this is a 608 certification? 

I'm always willing and wanting to learn new things and it may come in handy later on in life as well. I think it would be kind of cool to learn how to do that.

Edit: I forgot to mention. I found out today that our maintenance supervisor (who I've played golf with in the past and am playing in a scramble tournament on Oct 7th!) is a licensed HVAC tech before he came to work for our company so I'll be asking him some advice on the matter and maybe he has some tools he purchased in the past that I could borrow :)

Edited September 21, 2016 by jkelley9

[14ledo81]

14 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

@14ledo81 how difficult is the process to get certified for handling refrigerant? I believe this is a 608 certification? 

I'm always willing and wanting to learn new things and it may come in handy later on in life as well. I think it would be kind of cool to learn how to do that.

Edit: I forgot to mention. I found out today that our maintenance supervisor (who I've played golf with in the past and am playing in a scramble tournament on Oct 7th!) is a licensed HVAC tech before he came to work for our company so I'll be asking him some advice on the matter and maybe he has some tools he purchased in the past that I could borrow :)

 

Not that difficult to get certified.  If the test is standard across the nation (I believe it may be) it is relatively simple.  Passing the test though (it is mostly about dates and regulations IIRC), does not necessarily mean you know anything about how to do the work. 

A bigger deal would be the tools.  You are probably looking at around $1,000 (or more) in tools that you would really have no need for later.  Torch large enough to braze 7/8'' copper, vacuum pump, refrigerant gauges, refrigerant scale, bottle (and regulator) of nitrogen, mircon gauge.  Possibly more, that is what comes to mind off the top of my head.

[jkelley9]

1 minute ago, 14ledo81 said:

Not that difficult to get certified.  If the test is standard across the nation (I believe it may be) it is relatively simple.  Passing the test though (it is mostly about dates and regulations IIRC), does not necessarily mean you know anything about how to do the work. 

A bigger deal would be the tools.  You are probably looking at around $1,000 (or more) in tools that you would really have no need for later.  Torch large enough to braze 7/8'' copper, vacuum pump, refrigerant gauges, refrigerant scale, bottle (and regulator) of nitrogen, mircon gauge.  Possibly more, that is what comes to mind off the top of my head.

Thanks for the quick reply. I think it kind of sounds like something that would be fun to learn how to do and to be certified. Of course, I wouldn't crack it open if I wasn't confident in what I was about to do.

The tools are not a problem I believe. I have access to any tool in our shop here at work that has anything to do with piping is in our daily wheelhouse including the torches, micron gauge, etc. They may not have the pressure gauge since it's a pretty specific unit with specific fittings and rated specifically for refrigerant, but our maintenance supervisor may have this. Otherwise it looks like $100-200. I don't mind adding tools to my collection lol.

[Patch]

Here's a possible different approach. I have 2.8K square foot home where the summer temps reach 118*f pretty easily. I lease this place out. The a/c, gas pack combo unit was getting tired and was going to need replacing. Power bill in the summer was around $400.00 average per month.

One day while at Home Depot I saw they were having a sale on 15K/BTUs 110 volt window units for $149.00 each. I purchased 6 of these units, and installed them in the various rooms of the house. After all was said and done, all I had invested was $1800.00. Last summer's "high" power bill for a month was $125.00. My renter was happy with the power bill savings, and was quite happy with a much cooler environment to live in. 

These are very quiet running units. 

Window units are not everyone's favorite appliance. However, if something goes wrong with one while out of warranty, it's a quick economical replacement that doesn't require much more than a little lifting, and trip to the scrap yard. Also,  since each room's cooling is independent of each other, you have greater control over which rooms you want to cool. 

Just a thought. 

[jkelley9]

25 minutes ago, Patch said:

Here's a possible different approach. I have 2.8K square foot home where the summer temps reach 118*f pretty easily. I lease this place out. The a/c, gas pack combo unit was getting tired and was going to need replacing. Power bill in the summer was around $400.00 average per month.

One day while at Home Depot I saw they were having a sale on 15K/BTUs 110 volt window units for $149.00 each. I purchased 6 of these units, and installed them in the various rooms of the house. After all was said and done, all I had invested was $1800.00. Last summer's "high" power bill for a month was $125.00. My renter was happy with the power bill savings, and was quite happy with a much cooler environment to live in. 

These are very quiet running units. 

Window units are not everyone's favorite appliance. However, if something goes wrong with one while out of warranty, it's a quick economical replacement that doesn't require much more than a little lifting, and trip to the scrap yard. Also,  since each room's cooling is independent of each other, you have greater control over which rooms you want to cool. 

Just a thought. 

It's definitely a great alternative option. However I know that 1) my wife won't let me and 2) I don't believe my HOA would let me. Both are a shame because I honestly think it's a great way to cool your house. Each room has it's own unit so they're great for zoning. If one goes completely dead it's not like your whole house is suffering, most are very quiet nowadays, and you can modulate the temperature per ROOM which would actually be very useful in my house. It's a pretty sweet alternative. 

And at $1,800 for your whole house it's obviously an attractive option lol.

Edited September 21, 2016 by jkelley9

[14ledo81]

35 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

It's definitely a great alternative option. However I know that 1) my wife won't let me and 2) I don't believe my HOA would let me. Both are a shame because I honestly think it's a great way to cool your house. Each room has it's own unit so they're great for zoning. If one goes completely dead it's not like your whole house is suffering, most are very quiet nowadays, and you can modulate the temperature per ROOM which would actually be very useful in my house. It's a pretty sweet alternative. 

And at $1,800 for your whole house it's obviously an attractive option lol.

 

Would your HOA (and the wife of course) be ok with the units you see in hotel rooms?  That is another option.  You can get those with electric heat or heat pump options as well.

[jkelley9]

16 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

Would your HOA (and the wife of course) be ok with the units you see in hotel rooms?  That is another option.  You can get those with electric heat or heat pump options as well.

My wife would kill me lol. Not sure about the HOA but yea... the wife is scarier than the HOA haha.

Last night I was looking up what certifications I would need to handle my own systems. Apparently the Type I 608 certification to handle refrigerants only allows the person to handle a unit with up to 5 lbs of refrigerant. These 2 ton units along with the fact that the upstairs is a split system with longer line set (condenser outside, evap coil in the attic) I believe would put my volume above this threshold. The split system I have picked out without the line set specifies 52 oz refrigerant charge (I'm assuming this is wt. ounces, not fl oz?). So I'm assuming that a Type I would not be what I need? It may be slightly over 5 lbs. The problem I have from here is I'm having a difficult time determining what certification I WOULD need to legally work on my own systems. Also, apparently only the Type I certification can be taken online. If I need to get something like a Type 2 or 3 or universal would I be required to take a class, or will I be able to study materials on my own and just schedule an exam at a testing center? Online information was unclear.

Thanks again! 

[14ledo81]

51 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

My wife would kill me lol. Not sure about the HOA but yea... the wife is scarier than the HOA haha.

Last night I was looking up what certifications I would need to handle my own systems. Apparently the Type I 608 certification to handle refrigerants only allows the person to handle a unit with up to 5 lbs of refrigerant. These 2 ton units along with the fact that the upstairs is a split system with longer line set (condenser outside, evap coil in the attic) I believe would put my volume above this threshold. The split system I have picked out without the line set specifies 52 oz refrigerant charge (I'm assuming this is wt. ounces, not fl oz?). So I'm assuming that a Type I would not be what I need? It may be slightly over 5 lbs. The problem I have from here is I'm having a difficult time determining what certification I WOULD need to legally work on my own systems. Also, apparently only the Type I certification can be taken online. If I need to get something like a Type 2 or 3 or universal would I be required to take a class, or will I be able to study materials on my own and just schedule an exam at a testing center? Online information was unclear.

Thanks again! 

 

If your are going to do it, the universal is the way to go.  I don't believe a class is required, (just an exam) but you would certainly need the study material in advance.  

One of our supply houses has a sanctioned (I assume) proctor.  When we want some techs to get certified, they send us the study material advance, and then come and put the test on.

A local HVAC supply house could possibly help you get started with this.

[jkelley9]

37 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

If your are going to do it, the universal is the way to go.  I don't believe a class is required, (just an exam) but you would certainly need the study material in advance.  

One of our supply houses has a sanctioned (I assume) proctor.  When we want some techs to get certified, they send us the study material advance, and then come and put the test on.

A local HVAC supply house could possibly help you get started with this.

Excellent. Am I able to go straight for a Universal certification or do I also need to complete Type I, II, etc?

[Club Rat]

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 7:05 PM, jkelley9 said:

And my AC upstairs hasn't been able to bring the temperature down to set point.

Since you are set on being a "Jack of all Trades" which is great, I have another suggestion which you should look into.

Cooling upper levels sometimes is a difficult task for installing contractors due to restrictions with getting ducts installed though limited areas. Also, there is a possibility situations have occurred which may cause the ducting system to be altered over the years.

First you should check all air supply for discharge air temperature and air volume from both upper and lower units for comparison.

If air volume is low or air discharge temperature is not cool, then a few simple steps can indicate a problem. If possible inspect ducting for loose connections.
Next remove the furnace front service panels. The blower compartment may be either the lower or upper. The unit should have a safety door switch which cuts power to the unit. Set the stat to fan on continuous and cool to off. With the panel removed, press the safety switch and the blower will power back on. Now check air volume again at registers. If volume is still low, then the "Squirrel Cage" could de dirty. Dust can build up on the blades which affect the ability for the blower to work properly. It can be removed to clean if necessary.

If air temperature is cool at the equipment, but not at registers, there is mot likely a problem in the ducting system.

Other rare occurrences, insulated flex duct is commonly used in attic installs which come loose. Hot attics are not good for plastics which can melt, break apart and other possibilities can occur. They also can be "choked" meaning collapsed or crunched or the bend could be too close which restrict airflow.

Anyway, checking air temp and air flow may be the problem versus an equipment problem.
 

[jkelley9]

15 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Since you are set on being a "Jack of all Trades" which is great, I have another suggestion which you should look into.

Cooling upper levels sometimes is a difficult task for installing contractors due to restrictions with getting ducts installed though limited areas. Also, there is a possibility situations have occurred which may cause the ducting system to be altered over the years.

First you should check all air supply for discharge air temperature and air volume from both upper and lower units for comparison.

If air volume is low or air discharge temperature is not cool, then a few simple steps can indicate a problem. If possible inspect ducting for loose connections.
Next remove the furnace front service panels. The blower compartment may be either the lower or upper. The unit should have a safety door switch which cuts power to the unit. Set the stat to fan on continuous and cool to off. With the panel removed, press the safety switch and the blower will power back on. Now check air volume again at registers. If volume is still low, then the "Squirrel Cage" could de dirty. Dust can build up on the blades which affect the ability for the blower to work properly. It can be removed to clean if necessary.

If air temperature is cool at the equipment, but not at registers, there is mot likely a problem in the ducting system.

Other rare occurrences, insulated flex duct is commonly used in attic installs which come loose. Hot attics are not good for plastics which can melt, break apart and other possibilities can occur. They also can be "choked" meaning collapsed or crunched or the bend could be too close which restrict airflow.

Anyway, checking air temp and air flow may be the problem versus an equipment problem.
 

Awesome, thanks for the info! Yesterday I pulled the doors off the furnace-side and blower side. I didn't pull off the panel to actually see inside the blower itself though (had a limited amount of time to inspect).

I believe the blower is moving air well itself. It has a good suction pull when putting the doors on/off but I haven't taken any measurements yet.

You're absolutely right in that I should check air flow at each register. The air coming out of the registers is actually cool which it why I may have a flow problem. So like you said I'll definitely check the blower. Also, you're right in that these builder grade installs aren't the best. In my inspection last night I was checking the flow direction of the blower/furnace/coil assembly to see what replacement unit I needed and I saw was looks like a 6-inch insulated duct that was bent pretty hard around a truss support... It's also "felt" choked like it collasped, as you said. So that needs to be addressed. That may be the one to my  office which is why it's so hot in there all the time! lol. 

I also didn't have time to check the evaporator coil condition myself since that required screws to take the case off (I only had a few minutes last night). I'll check it today and see if it needs to be cleaned. The guy last year only cleaned the outside condenser coil, not the evaporator coil. So it may need a good cleaning. I'll snap some picks of it and see if you guys think it's in as "terrible" condition as this last HVAC contractor said it was. Because honestly the inside of the panels looked pretty darn clean to me... But that's doesn't mean much I guess.

[Club Rat]

51 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

It has a good suction pull when putting the doors on/off

That is normal and indicates good blower performance, but  may indicate return air capacity may be restricted or insufficient.

You could turn the power off (there should be a switch on the furnace) before removing panels or simply set stat to off position also.

The point of removing the blower panel is to test the system for proper return air quantity. If you get better supply air volume at the registers with the service door removed, that would indicate the system may need additional return air to the system. Return air volume is often overlooked and a simple solution.

[14ledo81]

1 hour ago, jkelley9 said:

Excellent. Am I able to go straight for a Universal certification or do I also need to complete Type I, II, etc?

 

You can go straight for the Universal.

IIRC it is a 4 part exam.  There is a base portion that has to be passed.  Then there is a Types I, II, II.  For example, if you pass the base and Type II, Type II is all you would be certified for.  If you pass all portions, you have the Universal license.

[jkelley9]

22 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

That is normal and indicates good blower performance, but  may indicate return air capacity may be restricted or insufficient.

You could turn the power off (there should be a switch on the furnace) before removing panels or simply set stat to off position also.

The point of removing the blower panel is to test the system for proper return air quantity. If you get better supply air volume at the registers with the service door removed, that would indicate the system may need additional return air to the system. Return air volume is often overlooked and a simple solution.

Ah I see. Yea I'll give that a test today or tomorrow when I have time to check out the blower fan unit and the evaporator coil as well. I don't think it's a return air problem because it a very large diameter insulated flex line (probably ~18 inch) with a very short run without any appreciable kinks or bends. It's very close to the unit, and I changed the filter with a higher flow (less allergen protection and stuff) filter just a few weeks ago.

9 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

 

You can go straight for the Universal.

IIRC it is a 4 part exam.  There is a base portion that has to be passed.  Then there is a Types I, II, II.  For example, if you pass the base and Type II, Type II is all you would be certified for.  If you pass all portions, you have the Universal license.

Awesome. I'll talk to my guy here at work (the previous HVAC guy) early next week. Can't this week as we're slammed with a plant shutdown. 

I'll keep you guys posted. This sounds like a fun educational opportunity and actually has a lot of similarities to chemical engineering so it wouldn't be a bad thing to have. 

Thanks again!

[14ledo81]

2 hours ago, jkelley9 said:

Awesome. I'll talk to my guy here at work (the previous HVAC guy) early next week. Can't this week as we're slammed with a plant shutdown. 

I'll keep you guys posted. This sounds like a fun educational opportunity and actually has a lot of similarities to chemical engineering so it wouldn't be a bad thing to have. 

Thanks again!

 

Certainly does.  Boiling points and how it relates to pressure changes.

[Golfingdad]

On September 20, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Golfingdad said:

We're having ours redone this Friday.  Just from reading the gobbledegook on the estimate (it's all foreign to me), we're getting a 4 ton Bryant heating and air system with filter base and digital wifi thermostat, 16 seer ac, 2 stage heater, for $7600.

We got one other independent estimate that was fairly comparable.

Wife also gets head start on contractors for this kind of stuff through a local moms Facebook group she belongs to.

I was mistaken, they actually came today.  They were done with the install in about 3 hours.  (We didn't need any duct work done)