Dropping in a lateral water hazard

[drmevo]

It seems that the only time you can drop in a water hazard is if you are in one, and rather than using one of the options to drop, you attempt to hit out of it but the ball comes to rest in the same or another water hazard. In this case, I believe you can use the option of replaying the shot by dropping as close as possible to where the shot was taken (I'm not sure of this, but it's my impression after reading the rules).

For a lateral water hazard, is it ever permissible to drop in the hazard, other than the case described above? I had a situation where I ended up in a dry lateral water hazard and it would've been more advantageous to drop within the hazard, if it were permissible. In my case, the ball actually came down on the far side of hazard but bounced back into it, so the point where it last crossed the hazard could have been kept between me and the hole.

Thanks!

Edited October 13, 2016 by drmevo

[CarlSpackler]

This should help.

http://www.fsga.org/sections/content/eRevision---Rules---091513/441

[Club Rat]

12 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

This should help.

Quote

Consider this example. If my ball were in a water hazard and as a result of stroke, I drove it straight down into the mud. Thinking I have it in me, I take another swing and drive it further down into the mud. If I am no longer able to play it as it lies, what options would I have?

1)      You are not allowed to take an unplayable when your ball lies in a water hazard, so that’s out.

2)      Stroke and distance gets me back to a buried lie in the mud so that’s out.

3)      If not for this Rule, I would have no other options and therefore would be done playing golf for that day and not able to finish my round.

4)      My only option is to go home!

I'd probably opt for option #4, but only after a few brewski's to drown my sorrows....

[drmevo]

25 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

This should help.

http://www.fsga.org/sections/content/eRevision---Rules---091513/441

Thanks for that, but I think this article is describing a situation where a player has already tried to hit out of the hazard, as I described in my first paragraph.  I'm talking about dropping within the hazard without trying to hit out first.  So, say your tee shot goes in the dry hazard, and is then perhaps stymied by a large plant, you'd be dropping two and hitting three. Is there ever a case where that could happen?

Edited October 13, 2016 by drmevo

[Club Rat]

5 minutes ago, drmevo said:

I'm talking about dropping within the hazard

It's against the rules. A player must take relief and execute their options.

[CarlSpackler]

6 minutes ago, drmevo said:

Thanks for that, but I think this article is describing a situation where a player has already tried to hit out of the hazard, as I described in my first paragraph.  I'm talking about dropping within the hazard without trying to hit out first.  So, say your tee shot goes in the dry hazard, and is then perhaps stymied by a large plant, you'd be dropping two and hitting three. Is there ever a case where that could happen?

The key of what I saw in there says that you cannot take an unplayable in a hazard, therefore you are not allowed to drop in the hazard.

[Rulesman]

27 minutes ago, drmevo said:

Is there ever a case where that could happen?

You will see that none of the other 'relief rules' (24, 25 & 28) give relief when the ball is in a water hazard or lateral water hazard.

[drmevo]

Thanks guys.  The closest thing I could find to what I was imagining is Decision 26-2/2, but it still involves the ball coming to rest in the hazard and trying to hit out of it so it's different from the situation I described. Here it is in case anyone's interested.

Quote

26-2/2

 

Ball Played from Within Hazard Comes to Rest in Same Hazard After Exiting Hazard

Q.In the diagram, a player has played a ball from Point A (the teeing ground) into the lateral water hazard at Point B. The ball last crossed the margin of the hazard at Point C.

The player elects to play the ball from the hazard and he succeeds in getting his ball out of the hazard, but it re-enters the hazard at Point E. The ball comes to rest at Point D and it is not playable. What are the player's options?

A.The player may under penalty of one stroke:

(a) drop a ball at Point B and play again from there, playing 4 (Rule 26-2a(ii)); or

(b) drop a ball anywhere on dotted line E-G and play from there, playing 4 (Rule 26-2a(ii)); or

(c) drop a ball within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than Point E, playing 4 (Rule 26-2a(ii)); or

(d) drop a ball within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than Point F, playing 4 (Rule 26-2a(ii)); or

(e) play another ball from Point A (the teeing ground), playing 4 (Rule 26-2a(i)).

Point E is the reference point for proceeding under Rule 26-1b or 26-1c as it is the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard.

If the player drops a ball at Point B and the ball comes to rest at a spot from which he judges he cannot play, he may, adding an additional penalty of one stroke, either drop a ball anywhere on the dotted line E-G, drop a ball within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than Points E or F, or play another ball from Point A (the teeing ground), playing 5. (Revised)

 

 

[CarlSpackler]

The difference being that the ball left the hazard and rolled back in which creates a new scenario for relief. In your situation, the ball does not leave the hazard so the the original points for relief are in effect, but you added one or more strokes attempting to get the ball out. 

[Whiner]

On 10/13/2016 at 8:27 AM, drmevo said:

It seems that the only time you can drop in a water hazard is if you are in one, and rather than using one of the options to drop, you attempt to hit out of it but the ball comes to rest in the same or another water hazard. In this case, I believe you can use the option of replaying the shot by dropping as close as possible to where the shot was taken (I'm not sure of this, but it's my impression after reading the rules).

For a lateral water hazard, is it ever permissible to drop in the hazard, other than the case described above? I had a situation where I ended up in a dry lateral water hazard and it would've been more advantageous to drop within the hazard, if it were permissible. In my case, the ball actually came down on the far side of hazard but bounced back into it, so the point where it last crossed the hazard could have been kept between me and the hole.

Thanks!

You may drop in the water hazard if the LR is in effect:  

Spec LR App IA/2b 

[drmevo]

24 minutes ago, Whiner said:

You may drop in the water hazard if the LR is in effect:  

Spec LR App IA/2b 

Interesting! I'm not sure I found the exact LR you're referencing - is it the one citing Environmentally Sensitive Areas?

[Martyn W]

24 minutes ago, Whiner said:

You may drop in the water hazard if the LR is in effect:  

Spec LR App IA/2b 

I cannot find your reference; I am not aware of any LR that allows dropping in a WH.

[Rulesman]

Appendix I - Local Rules; Conditions of the Competition

Part A 

2. Course Protection

b) Protection of Young Trees

When it is desired to prevent damage to young trees, the following Local Rule is recommended:

"Protection of young trees identified by ______. If such a tree interferes with a player's stance or area of his intended swing, the ball must be lifted, without penalty, and dropped in accordance with the procedure prescribed in Rule 24-2b (Immovable Obstruction). If the ball lies in a water hazard, the player must lift and drop the ball in accordance with Rule 24-2b(i), except that the nearest point of relief must be in the water hazard and the ball must be dropped in the water hazard, or the player may proceed under Rule 26. The ball may be cleaned when lifted under this Local Rule.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Rulesman

[drmevo]

 

15 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

I cannot find your reference; I am not aware of any LR that allows dropping in a WH.

Actually it looks like there are several local rules that allow dropping in a water hazard.

EDIT:  Sorry, do these just mean a bunker and not any type of water hazard?

Quote

3. Interference with Stance or Area of Intended Swing

Interference by an ESA occurs when the ESA interferes with the player's stance or the area of his intended swing. If interference exists, the player must take relief as follows:

(a)

Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies must be determined that (a) is not nearer the hole, (b) avoids interference by the ESA and (c) is not in a hazard or on a putting green. The player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of the point so determined on a part of the course that fulfils (a), (b) and (c) above.

(b)

In a Hazard: If the ball is in a hazard, the player must lift the ball and drop it either:

(i)

Without penalty, in the hazard, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer thehole, on a part of the course that provides complete relief from the ESA; or

(ii)

Under penalty of one stroke, outside the hazard, keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind thehazard the ball may be dropped. Additionally, the player may proceed under Rule 26 or 28 if applicable.

Quote

3. Relief

A player may obtain relief from interference by a TIO, including a TIO that is out of bounds, as follows:

(a)

Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies must be determined that (a) is not nearer the hole, (b) avoids interference as defined in Clause 2 and (c) is not in a hazard or on a putting green. The player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of the point so determined on a part of the course that fulfils (a), (b) and (c) above.

(b)

In a Hazard: If the ball is in a hazard, the player must lift and drop the ball either:

(i)

Without penalty, in accordance with Clause 3(a) above, except that the nearest part of the courseaffording complete relief must be in the hazard and the ball must be dropped in the hazard, or, if complete relief is impossible, on a part of the course within the hazard that affords maximum available relief; or

 

Edited October 21, 2016 by drmevo

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, drmevo said:

 

Actually it looks like there are several local rules that allow dropping in a water hazard.

EDIT:  Sorry, do these just mean a bunker and not any type of water hazard?

 

Definitions

Hazards

A "hazard" is any bunker or water hazard.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Rulesman

[drmevo]

Just now, Rulesman said:

'Hazard' includes Water Hazards and Bunkers by Definition.

Thanks, that's what I figured based on my reading of the Definitions. I thought it odd that the LR you cited specifically said "water hazard" where the ones I found just said "Hazard."