OOB Penalty Question

[mdl]

One additional thought.  You're handicap isn't official, so you're not going to be using it to enter any official handicapped/flighted tournaments.  So I assume you just keep it to track your own progress/improvement.  The handicap entry rules are sort of bent to fight sandbagging, hence if you break the rules of golf, most of the time for those of us around here that's because of a situation like yours, where your "real" score (if you'd hit a pro or reteed) would have been much worse than par plus your course handicap strokes, if applicable.

So I'd say that given your handicap is just for your own reference for your progress, that you should feel free to enter not the 4 but instead a slightly optimistic version of what you would have scored playing it right.  Say on the handicap #17 hole you would average 4.35.  Then take a 4 plus your stroke and distance for OB and card a 6 for you personal record keeping.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

For the purposes of the overall discussion, there is also a Decision that pertains.  It shows that Dave and I are both right. 

Who would have thought that we'd actually agree? 

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, mdl said:

One additional thought.  You're handicap isn't official, so you're not going to be using it to enter any official handicapped/flighted tournaments.  So I assume you just keep it to track your own progress/improvement.  The handicap entry rules are sort of bent to fight sandbagging, hence if you break the rules of golf, most of the time for those of us around here that's because of a situation like yours, where your "real" score (if you'd hit a pro or reteed) would have been much worse than par plus your course handicap strokes, if applicable.

So I'd say that given your handicap is just for your own reference for your progress, that you should feel free to enter not the 4 but instead a slightly optimistic version of what you would have scored playing it right.  Say on the handicap #17 hole you would average 4.35.  Then take a 4 plus your stroke and distance for OB and card a 6 for you personal record keeping.

Actually for an unofficial handicap, I'd make the drop and add 2 penalty strokes as a substitute for stroke and distance, then play on and mark whatever I get.  It would be close enough for such purposes, and at least you feel like you played it more or less correctly.

[turtleback]

On 10/13/2016 at 11:00 PM, m4rko said:

Hi Everyone,

I'm new here and was hoping someone could advise me on what I should do. (I really need to study the rules better)

I use an app called 'the grint' to track my handicap and some stats, and I am reluctant to declare a recent round at a new course as on one of the holes I hit a tee shot near the out of bounds and didn't play a provisional, when I went to my ball it was indeed in the hedge past the O/B marker, as I was just playing with a friend and didn't want to hold anyone up by running back to the tee, I just dropped a ball as a penalty and carried on, however I started playing well (for me) and ended up +7 after the 18 holes including my first eagle on a par 4 so I would have liked to declare that round (the grint has trophies etc to highlight things like eagles).

My handicap on there is 10.4 so this was a decent round at a new course.

So I knew the rule about provisional balls and shot penalties but can't find anything about what I do now after the card has been marked? Can I add a 2 shot penalty to the hole in question? The hole was a 6 on a par 4 so do I make it an 8? Or is it simply disqualified because I didn't play a provisional from the tee?

Sorry for going on a bit there but I hate the feeling of cheating or making a score look better than it was, Thanks in advance.

Mark

As you can see there is a lot of debate on this topic.  I would suggest that the situation becomes much simpler once we know what your purpose for keeping a handicap is in the first place, because unfortunately the way the rule are makes no sense.  

Under a literal reading of the rules, once you saw your ball was actually OB you could have just said "I can't finish the hole because I'm not going back and therefore it is most likely score, 6 or 7".  Or you can do what you did - play the ball in, treat it as a hole not played under the rules of golf, and take the par plus HC stroke(s).  It is curious that the HC rules allow this "choice" when the ROG are so adamant about the players NOT having this kind of choice.

Now, the real question is, why are you tracking your handicap?  Since you are doing it through something other than the USGA I imagine it is more for you to assess your own progress than as a basis for entering tournaments.  If you are keeping the handicap to track your play, then I would go with the most likely score scenario since that most accurately reflects your play on that hole and THAT is why you are tracking a handicap.  OTOH,if you are using your handicap to play money matches or enter tournaments then you need to go by the par plus scenario because that was designed as an anti-sandbagging measure.  

"Sandbagging" doesn't matter when you are tracking your handicap to assess your game but it definitely matters when playing a competition.  It is not an official handicap in any case, so you are not bound to do something that violates common sense to comply but disconnects the result for its intended purpose as intended by you.  If you are intending to use it just to track your progress it is more important to do what makes sense than to do what is technically correct.  But if the handicap is going to be used for competitive purposes then IMO it should be done technically correctly.  Assuming a par 4 and no strokes on the hole, you can pick up and post a 6 or you can play in and post a 4. 

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, turtleback said:

As you can see there is a lot of debate on this topic.  I would suggest that the situation becomes much simpler once we know what your purpose for keeping a handicap is in the first place, because unfortunately the way the rule are makes no sense.  

Under a literal reading of the rules, once you saw your ball was actually OB you could have just said "I can't finish the hole because I'm not going back and therefore it is most likely score, 6 or 7".  Or you can do what you did - play the ball in, treat it as a hole not played under the rules of golf, and take the par plus HC stroke(s).  It is curious that the HC rules allow this "choice" when the ROG are so adamant about the players NOT having this kind of choice.

I don't find it curious at all.  The Rules of golf are more concerned with competitions, and the day to day results as they affect that competition.  As such there is very little flexibility in the procedures which are allowable.

For handicap, you are concerned with the last 20 scores, and only 50% of those, so there is more latitude as long as the player uses good judgement in choosing the best procedure, one which leads to a result that is reasonably close to the score that he would most likely have posted had the rules mistake not occurred.  An honest mistake resulting in an error of a stroke or two on a couple of rounds is unlikely to have much effect on one's handicap.

Of course, this assumes that the player is making an honest attempt to follow the rules as he knows them, and to make good estimates when the procedural choices come up.

If sandbagging becomes a concern, then the handicap committee has the authority and the tools available to address that.  Anyone who deliberately abuses the handicap system is just as likely to abuse the rules when playing the rounds he is posting, so I don't see how that is even relevant.  

Far more players are likely to fudge the procedure in the direction of vanity anyway, unless they are deliberately posting for sandbagging purposes.  Then all bets are off and it wouldn't make a particle of difference what the manual says.

[Hardspoon]

21 hours ago, mdl said:

One additional thought.  You're handicap isn't official, so you're not going to be using it to enter any official handicapped/flighted tournaments.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure the Grint is an official USGA handicap (just not GHIN).

[m4rko]

14 hours ago, turtleback said:

As you can see there is a lot of debate on this topic.  I would suggest that the situation becomes much simpler once we know what your purpose for keeping a handicap is in the first place, because unfortunately the way the rule are makes no sense.  

Under a literal reading of the rules, once you saw your ball was actually OB you could have just said "I can't finish the hole because I'm not going back and therefore it is most likely score, 6 or 7".  Or you can do what you did - play the ball in, treat it as a hole not played under the rules of golf, and take the par plus HC stroke(s).  It is curious that the HC rules allow this "choice" when the ROG are so adamant about the players NOT having this kind of choice.

Now, the real question is, why are you tracking your handicap?  Since you are doing it through something other than the USGA I imagine it is more for you to assess your own progress than as a basis for entering tournaments.  If you are keeping the handicap to track your play, then I would go with the most likely score scenario since that most accurately reflects your play on that hole and THAT is why you are tracking a handicap.  OTOH,if you are using your handicap to play money matches or enter tournaments then you need to go by the par plus scenario because that was designed as an anti-sandbagging measure.  

"Sandbagging" doesn't matter when you are tracking your handicap to assess your game but it definitely matters when playing a competition.  It is not an official handicap in any case, so you are not bound to do something that violates common sense to comply but disconnects the result for its intended purpose as intended by you.  If you are intending to use it just to track your progress it is more important to do what makes sense than to do what is technically correct.  But if the handicap is going to be used for competitive purposes then IMO it should be done technically correctly.  Assuming a par 4 and no strokes on the hole, you can pick up and post a 6 or you can play in and post a 4. 

Hi,

I basically use 'the grint' to track my progress and was under the impresssion the handicap system is pretty accurate on that particular app! As I'm not a member at a club currently I thought this was the only way to get a handicap or atleast an indication of what I'd be given! Plus I got an eagle on that particular round which gets highlighted as a trophy on 'the grint' so was eager to have that haha!

 

i appreciate everyone's input on the matter as like it has been mentioned it can seem pretty confusing (for me at least)... I think what I am going to do is take a 6 because I played it as if it were a drop and not O/B and then add a 2 stroke penalty to that as punishment. This seems fair as I am trying to get my handicap low as possible but don't like to think I'm carding cards incorrectly to make myself look a better golfer!

Silver lining from this learning experience is that yesterday playing my local course I hit a shot O/B and knew that I had to play it from where I struck it and NOT where it crossed the O/B like I thought you could, so I've learned something from this forum already lol.

 

Cheers for your help everyone!