Bogey Golfers Only (Index 16-22) / Breaking 90 Topic

[Lihu]

I'm not sure exactly how to respond.  If your goal is to be comfortable - and you define comfortable as having more opportunities to be 160 or less in - why would you back up?  The closer you get the more comfortable you'll be. I'm confused a little on that one.

But either way, you have ultimately chosen the 6800yd tees when you aren't good at the 5200yd tees yet.  And we all seem to do it.  My question is why don't we play the tees that the golf organizations, the courses, the tee it forward campaign, etc suggest?  And why do we seek more challenge when we still stink at the easy tees?

I agree with your strategy, and also find that playing in closer is easier. If I could get to within 50 yards on all my tee shots, my game would be really really good.

However, imagine if you hit all your clubs hit 3 clubs longer. Where do you find yourself more comfortable? What club would you choose for that sub 100 yard green?

[rkim291968]

I understand what you are saying.  Some folks surely have trouble with different clubs.  Generally, the shorter the club the better - but it isn't 100%.  But I wonder if his assertion of 150-200 being better isn't just a flawed perception.  Wouldn't we expect more success from 100 than from 200?

It is possible that jbro06's quarter/half/three-quarter partial wedge shots may be less accurate than his full PW - mid-iron shot.  Hitting partial shots is not easy to master, especially, for bigger guys with huge wing span.   But I claim he can still post better score playing shorter course by teeing off with more accurate shorter club.   If the driver is his most accurate club (which I doubt), then I rest my case.

[Lihu]

It is possible that jbro06's quarter/half/three-quarter partial wedge shots may be less accurate than his full PW - mid-iron shot.  Hitting partial shots is not easy to master, especially, for bigger guys with huge wing span.   But I claim he can still post better score playing shorter course by teeing off with more accurate shorter club.   If the driver is his most accurate club (which I doubt), then I rest my case.

Yeah, but we really do not have enough information about the courses he plays.
I did play a course that played easier if you hit from the back tees.

This is kind of the exception because usually, there are obstacles like bushes, trees, rivers, lakes, boulders or even little hills in front of the back tee box.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I'm not sure exactly how to respond.  If your goal is to be comfortable - and you define comfortable as having more opportunities to be 160 or less in - why would you back up?  The closer you get the more comfortable you'll be. I'm confused a little on that one.

But either way, you have ultimately chosen the 6800yd tees when you aren't good at the 5200yd tees yet.  And we all seem to do it.  My question is why don't we play the tees that the golf organizations, the courses, the tee it forward campaign, etc suggest?  And why do we seek more challenge when we still stink at the easy tees?

I agree with your strategy, and also find that playing in closer is easier. If I could get to within 50 yards on all my tee shots, my game would be really really good.

However, imagine if you hit all your clubs hit 3 clubs longer. Where do you find yourself more comfortable? What club would you choose for that sub 100 yard green?

It is a good question.  And I got this from Iacas on another thread.  He laid out a scenario and asked how we would play it.  In the thread, he stated that the closer you are to the green, the better chance you have of hitting it.  It struck me as strange that I'd do better from 65 than 100, but after observing over time, I am def not hitting more from 100.  He was right.

If I was 3 clubs longer, it would still help to be closer.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Yeah, but we really do not have enough information about the courses he plays.

I did play a course that played easier if you hit from the back tees.

Which course is this?  I'd be interested to see that.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I understand what you are saying.  Some folks surely have trouble with different clubs.  Generally, the shorter the club the better - but it isn't 100%.  But I wonder if his assertion of 150-200 being better isn't just a flawed perception.  Wouldn't we expect more success from 100 than from 200?

It is possible that jbro06's quarter/half/three-quarter partial wedge shots may be less accurate than his full PW - mid-iron shot.  Hitting partial shots is not easy to master, especially, for bigger guys with huge wing span.   But I claim he can still post better score playing shorter course by teeing off with more accurate shorter club.   If the driver is his most accurate club (which I doubt), then I rest my case.

I guess it is possible.  But if he's a 290 guy, it's like saying he is better from 190 (mid iron) than from 100 (partial wedge).  I just don't think that is likely.  12 handicaps don't green that many from 190.  My money is on his 90yd shot.  I'd almost bet that no one on earth is better from 190 than 90 or 75 or 50 or 25.

[Lihu]

Which course is this?  I'd be interested to see that.

Again, this was when I was not able to control anything in the 40 to 90 yard distances. So, I moved back at Brookside course 2 to the blue tees, which put me in full club position on almost all the par 4's. This is why I bought wedges early on, even though I did not have the distances to warrant their use.

In jbro06's case, he hits so far that even a PW goes 147 carry plus a roll of 5? I merely extrapolated my case to his, and decided that he hits monster drives and monster irons straight, but doesn't have the finesse touch to hit shorter? IDK

If you ask me now, my answer would be to move up to the whites for an easier game. But, I spent a lot of time on technique and speed control.

[rkim291968]

Interesting discussion so far on jbro06's posts.  But, back to OT please.

There was a reason why I created a bogey golfer only thread so that we can share similar experiences, stories, etc..  This thread shouldn't be about how someone like jbro06 (12 HI) can do with his driver, and wedge.   We are spending way too much time on his claim and for all I know, he may be laughing his !#!$# off reading our replies.   Let's get back to bogey golfing, folks.   There's plenty to talk about on that topic.

Of course, if you are bogey golfer hitting 290 yard drives, playing 7000 yard courses, and getting on green from 140-200 yards out, by all means, tell us what you are messing up to still be a bogey golfer.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

Which course is this?  I'd be interested to see that.

Again, this was when I was not able to control anything in the 40 to 90 yard distances. So, I moved back at Brookside course 2 to the blue tees, which put me in full club position on almost all the par 4's. This is why I bought wedges early on, even though I did not have the distances to warrant their use.

In jbro06's case, he hits so far that even a PW goes 147 carry plus a roll of 5? I merely extrapolated my case to his, and decided that he hits monster drives and monster irons straight, but doesn't have the finesse touch to hit shorter? IDK

If you ask me now, my answer would be to move up to the whites for an easier game. But, I spent a lot of time on technique and speed control.

That's a good looking course.

We've gotten a little off course maybe. I won't dispute what you experienced during a few certain rounds with tees 200yds longer than the next set.  And of course someone can go out one day and score better from the blues than they scored yesterday from the whites.

But jbro was saying he plays from the tips because he scores better from the tips than from the blues or whites because he scores better from them.  I'm just saying that I think that is every bit as likely a misconception than than it is actually how he scores.  He wouldn't score better from 1000yds closer?  I think he would.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Interesting discussion so far on jbro06's posts.  But, back to OT please.

There was a reason why I created a bogey golfer only thread so that we can share similar experiences, stories, etc..  This thread shouldn't be about how someone like jbro06 (12 HI) can do with his driver, and wedge.   We are spending way too much time on his claim and for all I know, he may be laughing his !#!$# off reading our replies.   Let's get back to bogey golfing, folks.   There's plenty to talk about on that topic.

Of course, if you are bogey golfer hitting 290 yard drives, playing 7000 yard courses, and getting on green from 140-200 yards out, by all means, tell us what you are messing up to still be a bogey golfer.

Agreed we got a little off topic w/ jbro's game.  But I think the underlying topic is worthy of discussion for the bogey golfer thread.  The underlying topic being the difficulty of playing from farther back actually being easier and bogey golfers potentially playing from tees that have them out over their skis a bit.  My original question was about my experience with bogey golfers more or less ignoring course recommendations, the tee it forward campaign, and their own scorecard, etc when picking a set of tees.  And I'm guilty of it too - not throwing stones - but I found it an interesting question and it applies directly to bogey golfers.  I already know why Tiger plays from the tips.

I was actually surprised to get answers implying that the longer tees were easier or more suited to a person's game.  Jbro isn't the only one implying this.  I think that this is a misconception.  Logically speaking, if you can't break 80 and only sometimes break 90 - backing up is not more suited to your game. But we do it anyway.  It's a little strange, right?

If we find out that longer tees are actually easier, it totally kills a follow up question I had that I was really interested in asking.

[iacas]

We'll have a bigger thread about it tomorrow, but if you look in my signature right now you'll find this link: http://igg.me/at/lswbook . I'm not gonna pitch it hard right now, but a lot of you will benefit at least $15 worth by this book.

[Meltdwhiskey]

We'll have a bigger thread about it tomorrow, but if you look in my signature right now you'll find this link: http://igg.me/at/lswbook . I'm not gonna pitch it hard right now, but a lot of you will benefit at least $15 worth by this book.

A book about golfing strategy?  I'll buy that.  If anyone notices - most of my posts in this thread are about strategy.  Of course I should never offer any swing theory.

When I started back playing golf a couple of years ago, my lack of actual golfing skill led me to think about strategy more.  And as I did, I felt like there were a lot of folks, myself included, that were really not playing in a way that would lead to better scores more often than not.  Since then, I have become a bit obsessed with it. I'd like to think that I have come to some good conclusions, but of course I only get to see what I see on the weekends getting paired with different folks.

A book with a bunch of actual stats to back up theory?  Sounds like something that should have been done before.  Great idea.  Can't wait to read it.  This is totally in my wheelhouse.

[rkim291968]

I was actually surprised to get answers implying that the longer tees were easier or more suited to a person's game.  Jbro isn't the only one implying this.  I think that this is a misconception.  Logically speaking, if you can't break 80 and only sometimes break 90 - backing up is not more suited to your game. But we do it anyway.  It's a little strange, right?

Yes.  For vast majority of us, shorter course means less strokes.

[Lihu]

We'll have a bigger thread about it tomorrow, but if you look in my signature right now you'll find this link: http://igg.me/at/lswbook . I'm not gonna pitch it hard right now, but a lot of you will benefit at least $15 worth by this book.

I remember this came up in your "how would you play this hole..." thread. Cool, can I buy one from Mike next time we meet?

Thanks for sharing it to us "bogey" golfers first .

[iacas]

I remember this came up in your "how would you play this hole..." thread. Cool, can I buy one from Mike next time we meet?

No, unfortunately you can't. @mvmac doesn't have them and he's not writing the book. The funding window for this project closes in 30 days, so you have very little time to contribute to the project.

[billchao]

I was actually surprised to get answers implying that the longer tees were easier or more suited to a person's game.  Jbro isn't the only one implying this.  I think that this is a misconception.  Logically speaking, if you can't break 80 and only sometimes break 90 - backing up is not more suited to your game. But we do it anyway.  It's a little strange, right?

If we find out that longer tees are actually easier, it totally kills a follow up question I had that I was really interested in asking.

I said I'd hit from the longer tees (the blues, 6,600 yards if I remember correctly). Here are my reasons (they may be flawed, but they're mine):

1. I'm a fairly long hitter. Long enough that I don't need to hit my driver on every hole. In fact, I probably hit driver maybe 3-4 times a round at best. If the hole is less than 380, I don't hit driver. I can tee off with an iron and still be a mid-iron into the green. I don't hit my driver if there is trouble: OB, water, tight fairways; if I feel that a bad tee shot will cost me more than one stroke, I'm not going for it. I also don't hit my driver on long par 5's. If a drive is not going to help me get on in two, I'll tee off an iron. I have no problem laying up to play for par.

2. Because of reason #1, I feel like I would hinder my development by playing shorter tees. I would literally never hit driver, and then how would I learn to hit the darn thing correctly? I'd never build any confidence with that club (or my 3w). If I found myself in a situation where I would need driver, how can I possibly trust it? I feel I would be a better golfer in the long run by playing longer.

3. A large part of my enjoyment of the game is through improvement. Would I be scoring lower by playing shorter tees because I got better, or because it's harder to mishit shorter clubs? I want to hit those longer clubs well, not simply avoid them because I suck at them.

[Lihu]

No, unfortunately you can't. @mvmac doesn't have them and he's not writing the book. The funding window for this project closes in 30 days, so you have very little time to contribute to the project.

Done. Waiting for the book...

[Meltdwhiskey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I was actually surprised to get answers implying that the longer tees were easier or more suited to a person's game.  Jbro isn't the only one implying this.  I think that this is a misconception.  Logically speaking, if you can't break 80 and only sometimes break 90 - backing up is not more suited to your game. But we do it anyway.  It's a little strange, right?

If we find out that longer tees are actually easier, it totally kills a follow up question I had that I was really interested in asking.

I said I'd hit from the longer tees (the blues, 6,600 yards if I remember correctly). Here are my reasons (they may be flawed, but they're mine):

1. I'm a fairly long hitter. Long enough that I don't need to hit my driver on every hole. In fact, I probably hit driver maybe 3-4 times a round at best. If the hole is less than 380, I don't hit driver. I can tee off with an iron and still be a mid-iron into the green. I don't hit my driver if there is trouble: OB, water, tight fairways; if I feel that a bad tee shot will cost me more than one stroke, I'm not going for it. I also don't hit my driver on long par 5's. If a drive is not going to help me get on in two, I'll tee off an iron. I have no problem laying up to play for par.

2. Because of reason #1, I feel like I would hinder my development by playing shorter tees. I would literally never hit driver, and then how would I learn to hit the darn thing correctly? I'd never build any confidence with that club (or my 3w). If I found myself in a situation where I would need driver, how can I possibly trust it? I feel I would be a better golfer in the long run by playing longer.

3. A large part of my enjoyment of the game is through improvement. Would I be scoring lower by playing shorter tees because I got better, or because it's harder to mishit shorter clubs? I want to hit those longer clubs well, not simply avoid them because I suck at them.

Nice post.  I don't know if I'd agree, but it is a great answer and it is definitely something to think about.  Is playing the whites hindering our development?  It definitely puts you in different positions.  If you were going to play in a tournament soon and you knew it was from the blues, you would want to practice from there I'd think.  It still feels a little "walk before you crawl" to me though.

In the 380 yard example above, why not go ahead and hit driver or 3 wood and get as close as you can?  You would leave yourself with a great look at a GIR and you still got to practice driver - which doesn't hinder your development.  You say you would literally never hit driver from shorter tees.  Why not?  Making the course shorter doesn't make it thinner.  Wouldn't that give you a chance to get more GIR's?

In number 3, I'd argue that you can play the whites and improve at them.  As previously stated, we kinda suck even from the whites.  Plenty of room for improvement without seeking more dificulty.

Anyway, just playing devil's advocate.  Your post is the kind of answer I was looking for.  It's a good thought.