Bogey Golfers Only (Index 16-22) / Breaking 90 Topic

**rkim291968** · October 24, 2014

My daily track:
https://www.americangolf.com/public-courses/los-angeles/brookside-golf-club
I usually guesstimate them, but the shorter track is notorious for being really narrow. Many people find the 6000 yard track harder than the 7104 yard track, because it is so narrow and has those elevated island greens.

I played the Brookside golf club two years ago and my record shows I hit 80% of fairway that day from blue tee. It was a good round for me, a 93 on a course I played for the first time. Anyway, my recollection was that the fairways were of pretty reasonable width.

**Lihu** · October 24, 2014

I played the Brookside golf club two years ago and my record shows I hit 80% of fairway that day from blue tee. It was a good round for me, a 93 on a course I played for the first time. Anyway, my recollection was that the fairways were of pretty reasonable width.

You might have hit the areas near the fairways, but the fairways are pretty narrow. They are mowed down ever so slightly versus the "rough". Like I said, it's a public course and they might not be able to afford to mow it down so it's not so obvious. Plus, a lot of the normal weekend players would miss every fairway and get more upset than they do already.

BTW, I shoot about 88 from those same tees (not the last 3 weeks, because of an injury to my hand), with an average of a not so great 34 putts.

EDIT: you did mean course 1, right?

**rkim291968** · October 24, 2014

You might have hit the areas near the fairways, but the fairways are pretty narrow. They are mowed down ever so slightly versus the "rough". Like I said, it's a public course and they might not be able to afford to mow it down so it's not so obvious. Plus, a lot of the normal weekend players would miss every fairway and get more upset than they do already.

BTW, I shoot about 88 from those same tees (not the last 3 weeks, because of an injury to my hand), with an average of a not so great 34 putts.
EDIT: you did mean course 1, right?

The 6711 yards one. It had a few blind tee shots which,in one, all of us put our t-shots in hazard area unknowingly. The course and length didn't strike me as hard but I was probably playing a few strokes better then than now.

**Lihu** · October 24, 2014

The 6711 yards one. It had a few blind tee shots which,in one, all of us put our t-shots in hazard area unknowingly. The course and length didn't strike me as hard but I was probably playing a few strokes better then than now.

Okay, so course 1 (the gold tees are 7104, tournament are even longer) is the wider course, many of the locals call it "wide open". The narrow one is course 2, which is easier for me because I hit straight but short with my steel shafted driver. 5 weeks ago I was using 3i off the tee to keep it straight. If I couldn't reliably hit 190 with that club, I would not have been able to play that course so easily for an 81 on the 5700 yard tees.

One of the golfers I played the day before yesterday, drove 300+ yards (closer to 340 average that day). The same fellow who I talked about in a few other posts. He almost drove the green on the down sloping dogleg right hole, if you remember it hole 4. Basically, he avoided trouble by going over it. After the 8th hole, he said he would give me 18 strokes at $750/hole, to which I responded with maybe 30 strokes on each 9. I have a feeling that once money is on the line, he could be a birdie machine. Guessing he could be a +2 to a +4 based upon his distance and accuracy with his irons. Plus, he played golf on a full scholarship at USC.

**No Mulligans** · October 24, 2014

I've got some history with Brookside. As a kid I grew up in the area, I had a friend who lived on Linda Vista Ave. and bordered the northern most section of the course. Around 12 years old we would hop the fence and play a few holes before it got dark. That was the only time I was on a golf course until I was older. On the course as an outlaw, it was exciting, it was wrong.

**Lihu** · October 24, 2014

I've got some history with Brookside. As a kid I grew up in the area, I had a friend who lived on Linda Vista Ave. and bordered the northern most section of the course. Around 12 years old we would hop the fence and play a few holes before it got dark. That was the only time I was on a golf course until I was older. On the course as an outlaw, it was exciting, it was wrong.

I still see it, but now they fixed it by charging kids $1 for first tee and $7 on weekends with parents.

**billchao** · October 24, 2014

If your landing zone is 40 yards, that's huge. We have bunkers at 220-250 yards lined up lengthwise along the fairway if they're that wide. Or OB/water hugging one side and a bunker on the other side. You would need to carry 260 to guarantee that you're safe.

Like I said, there are some parts of some fairways that are 40 yards wide, just like there are some parts of some fairways that are 25 yards wide. The 40 yard fairways are far fewer than the 25 yard fairways, as a lot of holes are only 40 yards wide from tree line to tree line. Not that any of that is an excuse, because I can still miss a 40 yard wide fairway. I hate trees though

Landing zone is a completely different to fairway width. I'll play to the rough when it's available and not really penal.

**Lihu** · October 24, 2014

Like I said, there are some parts of some fairways that are 40 yards wide, just like there are some parts of some fairways that are 25 yards wide. The 40 yard fairways are far fewer than the 25 yard fairways, as a lot of holes are only 40 yards wide from tree line to tree line. Not that any of that is an excuse, because I can still miss a 40 yard wide fairway. I hate trees though :-P Landing zone is a completely different to fairway width. I'll play to the rough when it's available and not really penal.

Most people play from short rough, thinking it's fairway. On most courses, there's no difference when we play. This is probably one reason why fairway stats don't mean a lot to us.

**chasm** · October 25, 2014

Most people play from short rough, thinking it's fairway. On most courses, there's no difference when we play. This is probably one reason why fairway stats don't mean a lot to us.

What? I've never seen a golf course on which I couldn't tell the difference between the rough - even the semi-rough - and the fairway.

**Lihu** · October 25, 2014

What? I've never seen a golf course on which I couldn't tell the difference between the rough - even the semi-rough - and the fairway.

True, the rough is rescue, fairway is Bermuda. The bermuda is really narrow. . .

**chasm** · October 25, 2014

True, the rough is rescue, fairway is Bermuda. The bermuda is really narrow. . .

Presumably you mean fescue? But if so, that makes the assertion that people can't distinguish between rough and fairway even less comprehensible.

**Lihu** · October 25, 2014

Presumably you mean fescue? But if so, that makes the assertion that people can't distinguish between rough and fairway even less comprehensible.

Yes, fescue. My Samsung phone keeps correcting my spelling.

They are both cut to roughly the same length.

Many people associate the area not in the trees, and not too deep as the "fairway".

**natureboy** · October 26, 2014

Does anyone know what the average penalty strokes are by average handicap / score per the chart below?

AVERAGE SCORE

71

75

79

81

85

89

91

95

99

Found the original chart if anyone else is interested: http://oobgolf.com/content/fore+play/oob+users+rock!/1-4349-Statistics_And_Scoring.html

Also found some data and will post some rough estimates on penalty strokes.

**Lihu** · October 27, 2014

Found the original chart if anyone else is interested: [URL=http://oobgolf.com/content/fore+play/oob+users+rock!/1-4349-Statistics_And_Scoring.html]http://oobgolf.com/content/fore+play/oob+users+rock!/1-4349-Statistics_And_Scoring.html[/URL] Also found some data and will post some rough estimates on penalty strokes.

Guessing that the course rating will affect where you sit in the chart. That is, on an easier course you could fit the left side, whereas on a difficult course the right side.

**rkim291968** · October 27, 2014

I had one of those rounds that putts refused to go in. Had 41 (vs 33 average) total putts - 1 four putt & 5 three putts. 7 - 8 of them were tantalizingly close to going in - lip outs, stopping short of hole by an inch or two (one dangled 1/3 way into cup and refused to fall in). The last time I had over 40 putts was at Spy Glass almost a year ago but that was expected (fast green, 1st time playing, undulations). I can't remember the last time I've 4 putted. It was probably a year ago. Sigh.

**Lihu** · October 27, 2014

I had one of those rounds that putts refused to go in. Had 41 (vs 33 average) total putts - 1 four putt & 5 three putts. 7 - 8 of them were tantalizingly close to going in - lip outs, stopping short of hole by an inch or two (one dangled 1/3 way into cup and refused to fall in). The last time I had over 40 putts was at Spy Glass almost a year ago but that was expected (fast green, 1st time playing, undulations). I can't remember the last time I've 4 putted. It was probably a year ago. Sigh.

My putting wasn't stellar today either, I didn't even bother to finish putting one hole today. nGIR and 2 GIR on all 13 holes, but ended up with a lot of bogey and a couple doubles and a triple.

Getting the weight shift into my swing has changed the timing enough that I am hooking and slicing everywhere, even with my mid/long irons. Probably need a few more practice rounds with the weight shift incorporated into my swing. I think I am swaying a little bit trying to get the weight to the back foot.

**natureboy** · October 27, 2014

Guessing that the course rating will affect where you sit in the chart. That is, on an easier course you could fit the left side, whereas on a difficult course the right side.

That's probably true.My course is probably relatively easy: rated 67.5 (par 71) with slope of 120.

If nothing else, seeing where the ranges align relative to each other was useful to highlight some strengths / weaknesses. Just use numbers from the same course so you compare apples to apples. Chart below confirmed that the sense that my glaring weaknesses are lag putting and inconsistency from the tee ('doubly awful' stroke & distance penalties) along with some 'awful' pitching/chipping flubs. The approach & recovery game seem solid, though. My actual scrambling isn't that high - counting bogey scrambles too since 90 is my goal.

I added a few extra categories to Lucius Riccio's original chart and dropped the iron accuracy, because I could not find how that was calculated. The penalty strokes line is heavily estimated. If anyone has better data, please share.

	AVERAGE SCORE
CATEGORY	65	69	71	75	79	81	85	89	91	95	99	101	105
# GIR	15	13	12	10	8	7	5	3	2	0	0	0	0
% GIR	83.3	72.2	66.7	55.6	44.4	38.9	27.8	16.7	11.1	0.0	0.0	0.0	0
# GoFIR	16	14	13	11	9	8	6	4	3	1	0	0	0
% GoFIR	88.0	76.9	71.4	60.3	49.2	43.6	32.5	21.4	15.8	4.7	0.0	0.0	0
% Fairways	96	86	81	71	61	56	46	36	31	21	11	6	0
"Effective" Drive Dist. Avg.	274	261	254	242	229	222	210	197	190	178	165	158	146
# Penalty Strokes	0.3	0.4	0.5	0.7	0.9	1.1	1.4	1.8	2.0	2.5	3.1	3.4	4.2
# 'Awful' Shots	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.9	1.9	2.3	3.3	4.3	4.7	5.7	6.7	7.1	8.1
# Putts Per Round	27.0	28.4	29.0	30.3	31.7	32.4	33.7	35.1	35.7	37.1	38.4	39.1	40.4
Pitch / Chip / Sand #	5.1	6.1	6.7	8.3	9.9	10.9	13.0	15.5	16.5	19.2	22.3	23.9	27.5
% 3-Putts	3.3	4.1	4.7	5.9	7.3	8.2	10.0	12.1	13.3	16.0	19.0	20.7	24.3
% Greenside U/D	85.0	75.0	70.0	59.0	49.0	44.0	34.0	24.0	19.0	9.0	0.0	0.0	0.0

**Lihu** · October 27, 2014

That's probably true.My course is probably relatively easy: rated 67.5 (par 71) with slope of 120.

If nothing else, seeing where the ranges align relative to each other was useful to highlight some strengths / weaknesses. Just use numbers from the same course so you compare apples to apples. Chart below confirmed that the sense that my glaring weaknesses are lag putting and inconsistency from the tee along with some 'awful' pitching/chipping flubs. The approach & recovery game seem solid, though. My actual scrambling isn't that high - counting bogey scrambles too since 90 is my goal.

I added a few extra categories to Riccio's original chart and dropped the iron accuracy, because I could not find how that was calculated. The penalty strokes line is heavily estimated. If anyone has better data, please share.

AVERAGE SCORE

CATEGORY
65
69
71
75
79
81
85
89
91
95
99
101
105

# GIR
15
13
12
10
8
7
5
3
2
0
0
0
0

% GIR
83.3
72.2
66.7
55.6
44.4
38.9
27.8
16.7
11.1
0.0
0.0
0.0
0

# GoFIR
16
14
13
11
9
8
6
4
3
1
0
0
0

% GoFIR
88.0
76.9
71.4
60.3
49.2
43.6
32.5
21.4
15.8
4.7
0.0
0.0
0

% Fairways
96
86
81
71
61
56
46
36
31
21
11
6
0

"Effective" Drive Dist. Avg.
274
261
254
242
229
222
210
197
190
178
165
158
146

# Penalty Strokes
0.3
0.4
0.5
0.7
0.9
1.1
1.4
1.8
2.0
2.5
3.1
3.4
4.2

# 'Awful' Shots
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.9
1.9
2.3
3.3
4.3
4.7
5.7
6.7
7.1
8.1

# Putts Per Round
27.0
28.4
29.0
30.3
31.7
32.4
33.7
35.1
35.7
37.1
38.4
39.1
40.4

Pitch / Chip / Sand #
5.1
6.1
6.7
8.3
9.9
10.9
13.0
15.5
16.5
19.2
22.3
23.9
27.5

% 3-Putts
3.3
4.1
4.7
5.9
7.3
8.2
10.0
12.1
13.3
16.0
19.0
20.7
24.3

% Greenside U/D
85.0
75.0
70.0
59.0
49.0
44.0
34.0
24.0
19.0
9.0
0.0
0.0
0.0

Driving distance versus score is definitely CR dependant. So, the chart needs to have a reference course rating.

In any case, nice find!

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