Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[b101]

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

He went on to talk about Rey. What would be the hardest thing for Rey to hear? That her parents are such and such, powerful Jedi, known to be heroic? No, its for her to hear that her parents were no one. That they dumped on this backwater world and left her. Then Kylo uses that as a means to try to manipulate her to join him. It is way more interesting. It makes you really want to root for Rey more. If they said, "You are related to Obi-Wan." It wouldn't be interesting at all.

Couldn't agree with this any more. I'd have hated a 'oh, look, she's actually Finn's long-lost twin' moment (again)... This works far better.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

The thing about the Kylo character is his ACTIONS should have me HATING HIM with a passion.  He’s done a lot of evil deeds. But in fact I still don’t hate him or even dislike or like him much.  Maybe he should have had some evil comment or big evil grin after killing Han I dunno.

This is exactly why he's a great character and Adam Driver's done a good job insofar that it's not clear-cut as to what our opinion of him should be. Kind of like the whiny Anakin from AotC, but better acted... 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I think it highlights the conflict inside of him. Which makes him look more good, IMO.

QFT. 

---

As for my own take - having had a day to digest it, I found it good, but bloated. I think a good 45 minutes (mostly that awful side-quest of going to find the code-breaker that ultimately leads absolutely nowhere) could have been cut and would have led to a really tight, fast-paced film. I still find Luke hard to deal with as a character, but the arc was good. I can just about buy the ending with Luke placing himself there from across the universe, but I'd hate to see this used again - hopefully just a one-off 'Jedi Master' sacrificial move. 

A definite step up on TFA for my money, although I still prefer the more focused Rogue One, particularly as it didn't feel the need to deliver the perfect happy ending. I felt like there was a real missed trick in not having Kylo kill Rey, then Snoke. Could have led to Finn becoming a real main character and actually having Star Wars pull some surprises. Not that the way they did it was bad, I'd just like to have a real curveball thrown every once in a while!

[nevets88]

Is it a happy ending though? Resistance is ripped apart, no one answered, yeah the main characters got away, the First Order is chugging away fine. Luke is dead... dead-ish.

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, nevets88 said:

Is it a happy ending though? Resistance is ripped apart, no one answered, yeah the main characters got away, the First Order is chugging away fine. Luke is dead... dead-ish.

Exactly why I think they're prepping us for a lot more episodes. Like I said, I could imagine taking my grand kids to some future wave of these movies.

 

[NCGolfer]

Not sure where to start.  Haven't read every page of this thread, so here it goes.

I think I'll like this movie better the more I watch it.  At first pass, there were some really good parts and some others that I didn't like.  Most of those were the unnecessary comedic relief.  While it doesn't take away from the movie all together, I just wish there wasn't that much of it in the movie.

What I liked:

• I was on the fence about Kylo Ren in TFA as a petulant kid.  This movie redeemed it for me.  I really liked the scenes with him and Rey "talking" and you can truly see and feel the conflict in him.
• The Rey "parents are nobody"...I like this but I'm not 100% sure it is true since it was coming from Kylo, right?  Rian Johnson chimed in on this:

Quote

But for me, in that moment, Kylo believes it’s the truth. I don’t think he’s purely playing chess. I think that’s what he saw when they touched fingers and that’s what he believes. And when he tells her that in that moment, she believes it.

• The light-speed suicide crash.  Awesome...i was one of the people in the theater making a gasping noise.  I knew it was coming a few moments before it happened but when it did I loved the scene...silence as if you were watching it from outer space.  Visually stunning and impactful.
• Getting rid of Snoke and making it about Kylo and Rey.  I don't care about Snoke's backstory...couldn't care less.  This trilogy is about killing the past and building a better future...or, as Kylo would have it, his future.
• Benicio del Toro.  Enough said.

What I didn't like:

• Too much comedy.  I won't beat a dead horse.  I did laugh at Chewie/Porg eating scene though.
• Leia "forcing" her way back onto the ship.  Didn't like that at all.  Looked and felt bad.
• The entire Finn/Rose plot line.  Dumb, dumb, dumb.  I didn't like the Phasma character in either of the movies and glad she's dead.  And while we are on this topic...Rose can pilot a junk speeder?  Really?  I thought she was in the cargo bay doing inventory?  WTF?  I know their story helped build the bigger picture of the "machine" that feeds both sides of the war but I had enough of their plot line after she knocked him out.  I would have been OK with all of this if Finn had died going into that rocket/battering ram and taken Rose with him.
• Rehashing of old lines/thoughts.  The whole Rey "I can feel good in him and turn him" and Luke saying "no you can't" was predictable.  I might be nitpicking here but I had the "I've heard that before" feeling too many times.

I'm sure I'll add others but I wanted to chime in.  I'll probably go see it again over Christmas break...

[saevel25]

15 minutes ago, NCGolfer said:

Too much comedy.  I won't beat a dead horse.  I did laugh at Chewie/Porg eating scene though

The only part I thought went too long was the beginning scene with Poe trolling Hux. Besides that, I thought the humor was good at keeping the movie from being very dark. Honestly, it's not a very happy movie.

12 minutes ago, NCGolfer said:

Leia "forcing" her way back onto the ship.  Didn't like that at all.  Looked and felt bad

Rian Johnson said that they could possibly reshoot the scenes after that point, or possibly recreate her using CG. He thought that would have been a disservice to her performance in the movie for the sake of issues of what to do in the next movie. I rather have a complete performance like that then something manufactured after the fact. I feel like it's a good tribute to her.

17 minutes ago, NCGolfer said:

Rose can pilot a junk speeder?  Really?  I thought she was in the cargo bay doing inventory?  WTF?

Pilots do not have any other responsibilities? It's a rebellion force, not a standing army. You kinda got to multi-task ;)

 

[NCGolfer]

13 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The only part I thought went too long was the beginning scene with Poe trolling Hux. Besides that, I thought the humor was good at keeping the movie from being very dark. Honestly, it's not a very happy movie.

Empire is dark as well...didn't need that much humor.  Maybe I just miss Han Solo's dry wit.  That's the humor I'm looking for...not the overt, squirting squid milk all over my beard, humor.

6 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Rian Johnson said that they could possibly reshoot the scenes after that point, or possibly recreate her using CG. He thought that would have been a disservice to her performance in the movie for the sake of issues of what to do in the next movie. I rather have a complete performance like that then something manufactured after the fact. I feel like it's a good tribute to her.

I'm not even talking about Carrie Fischer, the person, here...the scene was dumb.  Have the bridge get blasted and her knocked out.  Cool.  Other than telepathically communicating with Luke, Leia has NEVER shown force abilities.  All of the sudden she can survive that long in outer space AND force her way back the ship?  OK, OK, she doesn't need much "force" in outer space to move herself back to the ship...but you get my point.   Just didn't like the scene at all.

7 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Pilots do not have any other responsibilities? It's a rebellion force, not a standing army. You kinda got to multi-task ;)

Rose, initially, doesn't seem like the multi-tasking kind of person.  Her sister was a pilot, I'll grant you that but she's portrayed as anything but the pilot-type in the first scenes.  I don't feel like the movie needs the Rose character.

[iacas]

31 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Rian Johnson said that they could possibly reshoot the scenes after that point, or possibly recreate her using CG. He thought that would have been a disservice to her performance in the movie for the sake of issues of what to do in the next movie. I rather have a complete performance like that then something manufactured after the fact. I feel like it's a good tribute to her.

I'm not sure that's what he's saying.

I think the scene felt awkward too. Either she dies or she shouldn't be exploded out into space in the first place. Maybe she's just injured but just manages to survive (by clinging to something, or whatever). Then she can use the force to open some doors to get back to safety or something, not float in as an icicle.

[NCGolfer]

35 minutes ago, iacas said:

Then she can use the force to open some doors to get back to safety or something, not float in as an icicle.

Exactly.  Like I said, I might be nitpicking but it just look and felt stupid.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, NCGolfer said:

Exactly.  Like I said, I might be nitpicking but it just look and felt stupid.

I think I turned to @JetFan1983 when she was floating back in and said "Oh, c'mon… That was lame." or something.

[nevets88]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

Pilots do not have any other responsibilities? It's a rebellion force, not a standing army. You kinda got to multi-task ;)

Yeah, in BSG, pilots do a whole bunch - ground infantry, gov't liaison, politics, etc... 

[JetFan1983]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

I think I turned to @JetFan1983 when she was floating back in and said "Oh, c'mon… That was lame." or something.

Haha yea that was, uh... questionable I guess one could say. We probably shouldn't go tugging at the thread that is the science of Star Wars  

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, JetFan1983 said:

Haha yea that was, uh... questionable I guess one could say. We probably shouldn't go tugging at the thread that is the science of Star Wars  

Anakin and Obi-Wan both battle inches away from Lava. I think the force can give you protection from the elements. ;)

[Jack Watson]

I almost posted earlier about the Leia scene.  The people I went with all mentioned it feeling bad after the fact.

Why not let Kylo push the button and be done with it?  In TFA and here she really didn’t have a purpose except cameo/nostalgia.

Her career speak s for itself but in these two films what did she do?

Rian Johnson’s not afraid to take some swings and he’s gonna miss a few as he did here.

Totally agree about how would Kylo know who Rey’s parents are?  Snoke manipulated their whole interaction.  Maybe true maybe not either way I think I would stick with them being nobodies it’s fine.

Everyone in Star Wars doesn’t need to be related to each other.

 

[Jack Watson]

Also I liked the Finn side plotat the casino a lot.  They had a real purpose!

Again Del Toro need more of him in the series.

[saevel25]

12 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Why not let Kylo push the button and be done with it?

Conflict

It might have been easier for him to kill Han. Han was right there in front of him. Also, Han could be the type of person who would be gone for extended periods of time. I could see Kylo having that strained father/son relationship. To the point of stabbing him through the chest with a lightsaber.

12 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

In TFA and here she really didn’t have a purpose except cameo/nostalgia.

She is the leader of the resistance. She is the glue that is holding this entire thing together. You see her transitioning that over to the younger people. She knows her time is limited with running this resistance. She has been running it for at least 34 years.

 

 

[nevets88]

Interesting listen on backlash.

http://fightinginthewarroom.com/2017/12/storm-of-spoilers-tour-great-debates-definitive-2017-movie-tv/

[Jack Watson]

I guess there’s two basic ways of looking at this movie.

1.  Rian Johnson just took Star Wars to a whole new level and things are not what they seem and the people who are part of this project are much more clever than we think.  As @saevel25 suggested,  perhaps we have never seen Snoke in the flesh.  Luke showed what he can do with the projection and Yoda showed he can create physical lightning as a ghost.  I dunno,  that’s kinda what I meant with my Matrix comment before.  I think it would be awesome,  but also dangerous because if you make ANYTHING possible with force use...Ie If we did not see Snoke in the flesh,  why would we be certain we saw Luke,  or did he kill himself to come back stronger as a ghost like Yoda?  I think the most optimistic viewpoint is some version of what Saevel is saying...

I think this may be a good possibility.  I think the team who worked on this has to be smarter than where they have left this trilogy at this point.

Or 2.  Abrams is gonna have a tough time with what he has to work with because Johnson’s movie kinda killed off the Saga as we know it.  This was my first impression after watching.

Ren vs Rey doesn’t have the same appeal as for example Ren and Rey teaming up against the Snoke who was never there for example.

Possibility 1. kinda requires a buy in from Hamill because he has made many public comments about he did not like where they took the story.  Is Hamill trolling us also?

I am pretty sure it’s not possibility one,  but who knows?

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Ren vs Rey doesn’t have the same appeal as for example Ren and Rey teaming up against the Snoke who was never there for example.

Completely disagree.

Ren and Rey have been the main characters. Snoke was a supporting character at best.

Ren vs. Rey >>> Both vs. Snoke

Ren vs. Rey, Dark vs. Light, is classic Star Wars.