Hi Everyone - This Year My Aim to Break 20 Handicap

[klineka]

34 minutes ago, Grinde6 said:

  I would definitely work on your shots 170-150 yards and in.  If you aren't putting the ball on the green from these distances and are leaving these shots 20-30 yards short than these are the shots to work on.  

I dont quite agree with this statement. I think it is extremely unrealistic to expect a 20 handicapper to put the ball on the green with any sort of regularity from 150-170 yds. The worst PGA tour players in this statistic get GIR 50% of the time from 150-175 yds. It looks like they are averaging about 3 attempts from that distance per 18 holes. While course yardages are much different, I feel that the extra distance pros have off the tee might be somewhat negated by the increase in total course yardages, so its reasonable to expect an amateur would see similar attempts from that distance over 18 holes. 

So from that distance I would say that a 20 handicapper might get 1 shot on the green from that distance over 2 or 3 rounds of 18? I think managing expectations is very important here. From 170 out, for a 20 handicapper, nGIR is very good, hole high but maybe 5 yards off the edge of the green is a great shot for a 20 handicapper. Get on the green with next shot, 2 putt, be happy with your bogey. 

On the other hand, if you are hitting it dead straight right at the green every time (unlikely being a 20 handicap) but leaving it 20-30 yards short, then that means you either dont hit your clubs consistent distances, or you dont know the distances that each club goes.

 

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.328.html

[Grinde6]

13 minutes ago, klineka said:

I dont quite agree with this statement. I think it is extremely unrealistic to expect a 20 handicapper to put the ball on the green with any sort of regularity from 150-170 yds. The worst PGA tour players in this statistic get GIR 50% of the time from 150-175 yds. It looks like they are averaging about 3 attempts from that distance per 18 holes. While course yardages are much different, I feel that the extra distance pros have off the tee might be somewhat negated by the increase in total course yardages, so its reasonable to expect an amateur would see similar attempts from that distance over 18 holes. 

So from that distance I would say that a 20 handicapper might get 1 shot on the green from that distance over 2 or 3 rounds of 18? I think managing expectations is very important here. From 170 out, for a 20 handicapper, nGIR is very good, hole high but maybe 5 yards off the edge of the green is a great shot for a 20 handicapper. Get on the green with next shot, 2 putt, be happy with your bogey. 

On the other hand, if you are hitting it dead straight right at the green every time (unlikely being a 20 handicap) but leaving it 20-30 yards short, then that means you either dont hit your clubs consistent distances, or you dont know the distances that each club goes.

 

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.328.html

Maybe it is because I am on my phone, but with that link you provided I don't see a % for the players for GIR from that distance.  If you want to lower your handicap as a 21 handicap and you aren't getting these balls on the green from that distance, would you not say that is something you should definitely take time to work on to lower your scores and your handicap????  If you say that a 20 handicapper will get 1 shot on the green from 150-170 per 2-3 rounds of golf I think you found out what you need to work on...getting a nGIR from this distance, a chip shot and a 2 putt and "being happy with your bogey" is probably what is holding you back from lowering your handicap...

[Hazsa]

Without going through the numbers in detail like othe posters have, there's no way you're getting GIR 50% of the time and shooting mid- high 90s.?

I suggest downloading one of the many free apps where you can track your stats. It can be a bit of an eye- opener (it was for me) and should pretty soon show exactly what you need to work on most.

[klineka]

35 minutes ago, Grinde6 said:

Maybe it is because I am on my phone, but with that link you provided I don't see a % for the players for GIR from that distance.  If you want to lower your handicap as a 21 handicap and you aren't getting these balls on the green from that distance, would you not say that is something you should definitely take time to work on to lower your scores and your handicap????  If you say that a 20 handicapper will get 1 shot on the green from 150-170 per 2-3 rounds of golf I think you found out what you need to work on...getting a nGIR from this distance, a chip shot and a 2 putt and "being happy with your bogey" is probably what is holding you back from lowering your handicap...

My point is that the worst pro golfers (who are still leaps and bounds better than amateurs) only get GIR from 150-170 yards 50% of the time.

So at MOST, a 20 handicapper would get GIR from 150-170 maybe 30% of the time? The pro players average about 3 shots from this distance for GIR per round, so you think that working on a shot that you would face 3-4 times per round with a max success rate of 30% is the main thing that is keeping the OP from not lowering his handicap?  

On a 385 yard par 4, to leave yourself with 170 left for GIR, that means your drive only went 215, or 235 if you have 150 left. If you bumped your drive up to 250, now youre only left with 135 left which is a much shorter iron/wedge left into the green instead of a mid/long iron.

Most likely, even from 125-100 yards, a 20 handicap still has difficulty getting GIR from this distance as well (some of the worst PGA players are around 60% from this distance, so following the same logic as above, the 20 handicap might only get GIR from this MAYBE 40% of the time) 

 

Here is a quote from the forum topic regarding managing expectations 

 

"The PGA Tour player takes between 2.83 and 3.05 strokes to hole out from 110 yards (depending on whether they're in the fairway or not). They only hit the green from this range about 3/4 of the time. The average scratch golfer takes about 3.1 strokes from that range.

From 35 feet, the average PGA Tour player takes just over two strokes (about 2.03). Sure, they hole one about 5% of the time, but they three-putt about 8% of the time. The average scratch golfer's slash line (of sorts) from 35 feet: 2.04/5%/9%."

 

So if the average scratch golfer takes 3.1 strokes from 110 yards out, that is only going to increase when it is back at 150-170, which would indicate that on average, scratch golfers would shoot slightly above par when they are left with a 150-170yd shot for GIR (3.x strokes + 1 tee shot is already over 4, maybe 4.5)

That is for scratch golfers, not a 20 handicap, where the numbers would be even higher. So yes, I stand by my point of if you are 170 yds out, a nGIR, chip, and 2 putt bogey is a good (maybe not great, but still good) score for any golfer, especially mid to high handicap golfers.

There are numerous areas that I feel would help the OP shoot lower that are quicker, easier, and more achievable than working on GIR shots from 150-170. They include, Driving accuracy/distance off the tee, course management, minimizing 3 putts, etc.   

Edited March 8, 2017 by klineka

[Lihu]

On 3/7/2017 at 1:58 AM, PeterTrent said:

Wow thanks for the advice everyone. It has made me go back to my stats again. And I think I can see some areas that could be causing the problem.

Whoops, sorry about the confusion it was a typo. My around the green is 3.6 not 2.6.

It seems from what everyone is saying is my GIR appears quite good, but that might be due to the distance of the holes. (Cumberwell in the UK). There is only one hole that is really pushing the distance boundaries. It is a par 5 uphill and VERY long. I have never got to that green in regulation. The other holes, even the long ones, when I am on target I can get up close enough to the green to do a scramble.

That is pretty much right, but its a long putt or long scramble in order to putt for par and I am rubbish at getting those close to the hole where I would be confident it getting it in. (The GIR+1 is from the Chart My Golf software. You are right about what it means. My exat figure is 97.2%)

Honestly, if you're really hitting 9 greens per round and 97% GIR +1 and shooting mid 90s, it's pretty obvious what to fix. You'd basically be that golfer who's knocking the ball back and forth across the green most of the time.

 

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On my holes where I am achieving a GIR my typical approach is a long putt. It is not uncommon for me to 3-putt with long putts. When I am not getting to the green in regulation I have avery awkward chip shot (20-30 yards) that quite often will go astray, even ending offgreen or in a bunker. When that happens that really messes up my around the green score.

This is a very common scenario, and I feel your pain. I have similar issues, but I don't get nearly that many greens nor anything close to 97% GIR +1 on average.

Some rounds, yes, but mostly 5 to 6 and some GIR+2 or possibly more.

I do better after the flag is back in after seeing it roll once or twice on the green. My plan is to practice on the course a lot more after the flag is in to get some subconscious memory of the way things roll. It's all feel based for me, and I even use Aimpoint Lite to gauge the breaks.

 

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So I am guessing my areas in need of improvement are the awkward 20-30 yard chips, but that is what I worked on last year, but with not great results. That range is really bad for me. One guy suggested I purposesly go short with my previous shot to get to the 50 yard range where I am more confident in judging distance. That could be a good idea, but seems counter intuative.

Also the other problem area is long putts. What does everyone do to get their long putts close enough to the hole to make it almost certain it will go in next shot. I am terrible at judging distance for that long range. I practice on the practice greens before each round, but when you get on the course all the slopes and stuff on the greens makes it impossible to judge distance to any great degree of accuracy.

Or maybe its my resulting medium putts that need the work?

Practice putting and chipping after the flag is in. Just a couple a hole would help you a lot.

 

BTW, Cumberwell don't look like easy courses? 6000 yards (5800 to 6200) are regulation courses.

http://www.oobgolf.com/courses/scorecard.php?id=22401

Unless you can reliably get 250 yards off the tee (240 to 270 yard range not all with driver), it's not going to be easy to get 50% GIR.

Are you sure about hitting 9 greens every round? Seems like that's low single digit territory?

	AVERAGE SCORE									Relationship
CATEGORY	71	75	79	81	85	89	91	95	99
GIR	12	10	8	7	5	3	2	0	0	Strong
% Fairways	81	71	61	56	46	36	31	21	11	Weak
Iron Accuracy	80	68	53	47	33	20	13	0	0	Good
Putts per Round	29.0	30.3	31.7	32.3	33.7	35.0	35.7	37.0	38.3	Weak
Pitch/Chip/Sand	5.1	7.4	9.8	10.9	13.3	15.6	16.8	19.2	21.5	Strong
Birdies	3.2	2.4	1.8	1.5	0.8	0.1	0	0	0	Strong
Pars	11.8	10.3	8.8	8.1	6.6	5.1	4.3	2.8	1.3	Strong

[JetFan1983]

On 3/6/2017 at 2:19 PM, PeterTrent said:

Hi everyone. Just found this forum. This year I want to break 20 Handicap. (I said that last year but failed. I am 23 Handicap.) Any advice anyone can give to a bogey golfer to break this milestone?

My GIR is about 50%, my GIR+1 is 100%. Around the Green is about 2.6.

 

This is probably against the grain somewhat because it's probably never a bad idea to have goals, but I wouldn't bother setting a numerical goal of any kind with this game.

You're having trouble breaking a 20 index for a reason: golf is hard for everyone, but for most of us, it's really, really hard. Obviously you want to improve, and that's great, but I think when it comes to a game like golf, it's best to put your enjoyment of the little things paramount above all else. There are just too many opportunities for this game to piss you off that I think it's a good move to mentally adjust in a way that realistically allows you to get the most enjoyment out of playing.

That isn't to say you shouldn't still do the things that help people improve. You should. You should also respect the game and set time aside for practice. Just do so with the understanding that this game is brutal, and you should spend more time enjoying your company and surroundings than you should worrying about some silly number on a card.

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, JetFan1983 said:

This is probably against the grain somewhat because it's probably never a bad idea to have goals, but I wouldn't bother setting a numerical goal of any kind with this game.

You're having trouble breaking a 20 index for a reason: golf is hard for everyone, but for most of us, it's really, really hard. Obviously you want to improve, and that's great, but I think when it comes to a game like golf, it's best to put your enjoyment of the little things paramount above all else. There are just too many opportunities for this game to piss you off that I think it's a good move to mentally adjust in a way that realistically allows you to get the most enjoyment out of playing.

That isn't to say you shouldn't still do the things that help people improve. You should. You should also respect the game and set time aside for practice. Just do so with the understanding that this game is brutal, and you should spend more time enjoying your company and surroundings than you should worrying about some silly number on a card.

Nicely written.

[Grinde6]

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On a 385 yard par 4, to leave yourself with 170 left for GIR, that means your drive only went 215, or 235 if you have 150 left. If you bumped your drive up to 250, now youre only left with 135 left which is a much shorter iron/wedge left into the green instead of a mid/long iron.

It is my understanding from reading on this forum, that not very many 20+ handicappers hit the ball over 250.  I guess I was going from my own yardages that I usually am leaving myself with, and of them all the 170-150 range ranks right up there.   So after writing down all my approach shot yardages for a month straight, I came to the conclusion that 150-170 were the shots I needed to work on since those were the ones I would most likely hit.  About 7-8 such instances on my home course per round.  Then I looked at what was the next most frequent yardage.  110-130 was about 4 holes, so I worked on those distances.  That's what I am getting at.

If you are saying that 20+ handicappers leave themselves with 130-150 yards to the hole, then if I wanted to lower my scores, I would be working on those distances. 

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So if the average scratch golfer takes 3.1 strokes from 110 yards out, that is only going to increase when it is back at 150-170, which would indicate that on average, scratch golfers would shoot slightly above par when they are left with a 150-170yd shot for GIR (3.x strokes + 1 tee shot is already over 4, maybe 4.5)

3.1 makes sense, the approach shot, and 2 putts, maybe they hit the bunker for some reason, blast out and 2 putt which gives them a bogey.  Maybe its the confidence I have in that shot since I have practiced it repeatedly, but put me in that 150-170 range and I'm liking my chances to shoot a low score.

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That is for scratch golfers, not a 20 handicap, where the numbers would be even higher. So yes, I stand by my point of if you are 170 yds out, a nGIR, chip, and 2 putt bogey is a good (maybe not great, but still good) score for any golfer, especially mid to high handicap golfers.

Lets change that number to the numbers you are stating 20 handicappers mostly have for approach shots which is 130-150 yards.  If you are taking 4 strokes from that yardage, to lower your scores (which the OP is wanting to do) I would suggest working on those yardages and becoming confident with them...that is how you are going to lower your scores...

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There are numerous areas that I feel would help the OP shoot lower that are quicker, easier, and more achievable than working on GIR shots from 150-170. They include, Driving accuracy/distance off the tee, course management, minimizing 3 putts, etc.

Driving accuracy is a great step to take to improve scores and I think its something that 20+ handicappers struggle with, but in regards to the OP, it didn't seem like he is getting in trouble off the tee if he is hitting 50% GIR as he states.  Course Management is also a very good point and I believe a few strokes can be saved here.  Minimizing 3 putts goes back to my point about working on the approach shots that you make the most.  If it is the 130-150 range, work on getting these close enough to where you aren't 3 putting.  The OP stated he is usually putting from a long ways away...if he tightened up his approach shots, I believe he would in turn minimize his 3 putts...unless he is a terrible putter which might be the case, I don't know.

[HitAndGiggle]

Late last year I dropped through the 20-handicap level by doing one thing. I slowed my transition from the top, letting gravity drop the club. It seemed like an instant reduction of about 7 strokes. Since then I started taking a series of lessons from an old local pro and made a few substantial swing changes which I've engrained on the range this winter. So, I'm looking forward to trying to shoot 80 this year. My couple muddy, unmowed-cow-pasture-course outings this winter have been pretty promising. Praying for golf weather. So, that was my initial change that broke me through that barrier.

[BuckeyeNut]

On 3/6/2017 at 1:19 PM, PeterTrent said:

Hi everyone. Just found this forum. This year I want to break 20 Handicap. (I said that last year but failed. I am 23 Handicap.) Any advice anyone can give to a bogey golfer to break this milestone?

My GIR is about 50%, my GIR+1 is 100%. Around the Green is about 2.6.

 

 50% GIR is more realistic for a scratch golfer. Maybe I read your comment wrong, but a 20hc hit's nowhere close to 50%Gir.  

My best advice to smash through that 20HC/bogey golfer zone is to play more than once/twice a week.  Do that, and it's difficult not to play better.   

Edited March 15, 2017 by BuckeyeNut

[MacDutch]

On average (on a par 72) the topic starter is in 2.5 shots on the green. If he could putt like a 20-capper, he would need an extra 36 putts, So on average he would score 81 on a par 72. But he is not, because he is a 23 hcp.  The only thing he has to take care of, is putting like a 20 capper and he would shoot low eighties.....

So I think he should take care of putting first and foremost.......

or more likely ask someone else to do the statistics for him.