The Golf Ball "Problem": PGA Tour Players Hitting it Far is a Problem for All of Golf?

[Lihu]

On 10/17/2017 at 5:10 PM, Jack Watson said:

Find a mod PGA guy who says the olden times players were not as good as they are now.  Present evidence...

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-would-modern-tour-pros-do-hitting-ben-hogans-old-clubs-we-had-them-try-and-it-wasnt-pretty

I challenge anyone to present evidence that modern tour players think that they are better than their predecessors...

This is a simple fact.  The old times players had to strike with greater precision.

Nice post, I enjoyed watching the video.

However, I'm 100% sure the modern players hit with just as much precision anyway. Also, I doubt many or if any modern tour players make any kind of comparison stating that they're better with tour players of the past. They're from different eras, hard to compare.

[Vinsk]

55 minutes ago, Lihu said:

However, I'm 100% sure the modern players hit with just as much precision anyway.

Of course they do. And this is what @Jack Watson is missing. Yes the equipment is better. But so are the athletes. What Jack is forgetting is that it's not like all the modern tour players are now hitting the ball a mile. Tiger came out and first shook the game up with his distance.  All the pros were playing modern equipment, it was Tiger who stood out. That's skill and precision @Jack Watson, not just equipment. I remember a skins game (remember those) when Tiger was playing and Jack Nicklaus was there, Mark O'meara as well. Jack says, "Criminey Tiger just hit a 7i on that shot" (Don't remember the yardage but it was very impressive) then Mark O says, "Well he's supposed to hit it like that, he's 22". Jack Nicklaus then says, "Well, you never hit it like that when you were 22." Mic drop. 

To think the older players were 'more precise' or required more skill is asinine. They were great golfers doing the best with the equipment available at that time. Just like today the golfers are doing their best with the equipment of today. But it's not just the equipment. As @iacas has mentioned the athletes themselves are better. This has occurred in every sport. The 100m record keeps getting faster, the high jump higher, the long jump longer. Again I think this all boils down to a guy with good intentions who has been beaten to the ground by golf and just isn't able to relax and truly admit, golf is hard. Maybe too hard for him. Cheers Jack.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Vinsk

[joro]

It is a never ending discussion isn't it.

[Vinsk]

3 minutes ago, joro said:

It is a never ending discussion isn't it.

Damn it I'm off topic. Sorry.

[Jack Watson]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

o think the older players were 'more precise' or required more skill is asinine.

Ask the mod pros about hitting persimmon.  I've posted examples.  They ALL say wow much more difficult,  so you are not arguing against me,  but them.  Again you lack any real point.  As far as your multiple thinly veiled ad hominem attacks against me,  I can only respond that I do not believe as you do that one must be a masochist to be a golfer.  Golf is what you make it.

@saevel25

Good points,  and in baseball the ball has prolly been juiced,  but it's nothing endorsed or admitted by MLB.  It's probably true but anyways in golf the governing bodies were bullied by the equipment manufacturers imo.  In the NBA they moved the line in for a couple years then returned it back where it was.

IMO in golf the equipment manufacturers caused a revolution,  and the governing bodies failed to protect the integrity of the game...Obviously that's just an opinion...

Edited October 19, 2017 by Jack Watson

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Ask the mod pros about hitting persimmon.  I've posted examples.  They ALL say wow much more difficult,  so you are not arguing against me,  but them.  Again you lack any real point.  As far as your multiple thinly veiled ad hominem attacks against me,  I can only respond that I do not believe as you do that one must be a masochist to be a golfer.  Golf is what you make it.

Difficulty of old equipment is not an argument that proves - at all - old players were more precise.

Logic fail @Jack Watson.

[Jack Watson]

Just now, iacas said:

Difficulty of old equipment is not an argument that proves - at all - old players were more precise.

Logic fail @Jack Watson.

So the assumption is old clubs ball were more difficult to hit.  I am assuming you mean you disagree on that,  and if so we have no quarrel.  Based on that assumption though it's no logic fail.

[Pretzel]

39 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

So the assumption is old clubs ball were more difficult to hit.  I am assuming you mean you disagree on that,  and if so we have no quarrel.  Based on that assumption though it's no logic fail.

Just because it was more difficult doesn't mean they were more precise. Remember, the new pros play better than the old ever did, so the difficulty difference is offset by the scores that are being shot nowadays.

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, Pretzel said:

Just because it was more difficult doesn't mean they were more precise. Remember, the new pros play better than the old ever did, so the difficulty difference is offset by the scores that are being shot nowadays.

The problem is, he will never admit that the current golfers are superior than their predecessors. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

So the assumption is old clubs ball were more difficult to hit.  I am assuming you mean you disagree on that,  and if so we have no quarrel.  Based on that assumption though it's no logic fail.

No.

What @Pretzel said.

[Jack Watson]

30 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

Just because it was more difficult doesn't mean they were more precise. Remember, the new pros play better than the old ever did, so the difficulty difference is offset by the scores that are being shot nowadays.

-Ben Hogan won the Vardon Trophy in 1948 with an average score of 69.3.  In 2008 Sergio Garcia won the Vardon Trophy with a score of 69.12.

hmmmm

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

-Ben Hogan won the Vardon Trophy in 1948 with an average score of 69.3.  In 2008 Sergio Garcia won the Vardon Trophy with a score of 69.12.

hmmmm

Still failing.

Sergio played far more difficult courses.

[saevel25]

You pick one person. It's easy to nit pick data for your own advantage. Would Hogan succeed in the modern era, probably. Would he be as dominant, most likely not. He didn't compete against the quality of players the best players have to compete against today. 

 

[Jack Watson]

@saevel25

true,  stats can be used to prove almost any point.  @iacas has a poin also, but so do I because the EQUIPMENT differed so greatly.  I am not a stats guy and would probably be made to look stupid by folks here who know stats better...It's just imo with crap agronomy and gear relatively that Hogan was able to do that.  Who knows what he would have done if he was not almost killed by a greyhound bus.  I have not publicly posted hope for Woods because I believe he won't be back, but like anyone who loves golf in the back of my mind I have a wish to see him at least contend again at a major.

In Shells golf match vs Snead Hogan hit every green and many accounts say even after the accident this was commonplace for him. Nicklaus once said when asked is Tiger the best striker you have ever seen and Jack replied no Ben Hogan easily.  The argument that today's players are more skilled golfers than the greats of yesteryear is not cut and dried.

Many knowledgeable people in golf agree that the older fellas were a bit better at ballstriking.  As far as the athletics argument for mod guys goes,  it's not necessary to be an Olympic class athlete to play world class golf

A  it's a game of skill and

B  the golf swing is not the most efficient motion in terms of body input equaling clubhead speed output.  You can have plenty of d without being a Federer or Curry class of athlete conditioning wise and we have seen it over the years.  Finally

you have many players on the champions tour whose driving average is farther now than it was during their prime on tour!  Explain that without taking into account equipment!  Everyone knows it's equipment!  

As always best wishes to all

 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Jack Watson said:

Many knowledgeable people in golf agree that the older fellas were a bit better at ballstriking.

Many have said the opposite.

You’re well off topic now, and have been for far too long. So you’re done now.

[Vinsk]

https://www.yahoo.com/newsroom/vibes/celebrity/v-b7ddaf4b-9395-34b6-9ddc-e32547089110_c-344b1553-7357-3e40-9c2e-64a72319083b_a-344b1553-7357-3e40-9c2e-64a72319083b?soc_src=newsroom&soc_trk=com.apple.UIKit.activity.CopyToPasteboard&.tsrc=newsroom

Tiger can’t believe how far he’s hitting the ball? Maybe it’s that you are arguably the best golfer of all time? That you came out and hit the ball like no one had ever seen? Give me a break ...stop this nonsense with limiting the distance. 

[joro]

Well Vinsk, we all have opinions on it, but if you read the article Tiger seems to be referring to what he is getting into and that is course design.    He said the longall is taking more property to make courses longer.    It also takes more maintenance, water, and other things.    I don't think he has other problems except that maybe he doesn't like to think about people knocking it way past him when he was the man a few years ago.    Do we really know what he means?    

[Vinsk]

16 minutes ago, joro said:

Well Vinsk, we all have opinions on it, but if you read the article Tiger seems to be referring to what he is getting into and that is course design.    He said the longall is taking more property to make courses longer.    It also takes more maintenance, water, and other things.    I don't think he has other problems except that maybe he doesn't like to think about people knocking it way past him when he was the man a few years ago.    Do we really know what he means?    

Yeah I get that. But golf will find a way. It’s not like the tour players are out there shooting in the 50’s every round. There are still bogeys + a-plenty out there. And there are still shorter hitters winning tournaments (Brian Harmon for one). I don’t know much about golf course architecture but I don’t think there is a shortage of courses right now. And I also believe there are other ways to make a course difficult like Oakmont other than lengthening it.