So I got a putter fitting and the results are.. umm.. frustrating

[lastings]

Not sure if anyone cares about any of this, but I found this highly interesting.   For those that have never had a putter fitting and don't know much about putters, I though I might shares my insights.
If you don't care about the process, feel free to skip to the end and recommend a putter.  

I got a putter fitting over at Club Champion, with the Sam putt lab.   (I know, it wasn't an Edel fitting.   I know, i know..  don't yell at me)

It was cool.  I learned a ton about putters and putter fitting.   I learned a lot about how putter shapes and weights suit different strokes.   
Here's what I learned about my stroke:   I am way too handsy, and my putter head rotates too much in a half-moon arc.   This is not an entirely terrible thing for some "feel" putters.   But, those putters are very consistent with their arc and contact points and such.   I, however, am not one of those people.  I've attached the original SAM putt report from my test with my putter, for those of you that have never seen one of these.   some cool stuff.   

 

note: results and conclusions listed below are individual.   Even if what is below sounds a lot like you, I'd say get a fitting for yourself.  there is a lot to be learned. 

The conclusion my fitter pretty quickly came to, is that I have created some interesting swing compensations to fit my swing to my putter.   for the following reasons: 

1) Toe hang is my enemy.  [toe hang, in simplest terms, is when you balance your putter shaft on your finger, the degree to which the toe hangs towards the ground.]  the more toe hang your putter has, the more the club promotes head rotation in your swing.  
Currently, I have an odyssey Versa 9 which is a heel shafted putter.   This has about as much toe-hang as possible. 

2) my hands have a tendency to move independently from my body, rather than all as a unit.   This is created, or at least exaggerated, by the fact that I am tall (6'2") and I have to lean over quite a bit to putt, even though my current putter is 35".   

This much being said, the fitter said I have found a way to be shockingly consistent in spite of the fact that my putter style exaggerates my inconsistencies.  In the report attached I made 6 of 7 putts from 10 feet.   which is pretty standard for me if I'm putting on a flat surface over and over from the same spot.   I can get in a groove pretty easily.   But, the fitter guessed, quite correctly, that I have a difficult time finding that groove on the course.    

In conjunction with the Sam putt lab, we took slow motion video of my putting stroke from above.    reviewing those results, it became evidently clear that while I was producing consistent results, these was nothing consistent about my swing.    
With each swing came something different with constant little adjustments to try to square the face.   looking at this, it as clearly non-repeatable, and the amount of adjustments i need to make to hit a putt squarely makes it quite implausible to have a consistent stroke.  

 

Given what we learned above, the fitter grabbed some putters and we tried some stuff out.   We immediately went to putters with less toe-hang.   still tons of options here, as nearly all putters have less toe-hang than mine.  Still-though, it was beneficial to understand how different amounts of toe-hang adjusted my swing.   While that may have created a bit of improvement, The fitters next suggestion was really a game changer for me.   We moved to a 38" counter balanced shaft.   Scotty Cameron and Ping both make a putters that is weighted to match a shaft like this.   Additionally, he put one of these shafts in a Taylor Made Spider as I was swinging that very consistently.   The 38" shaft is meant to be gripped a few inches down, so your hands are in the middle of the grip rather than on the end.   This, as I had mentioned, was a game changer.   This drastically quieted my hands.   Review of slow motion video showed just as much.   The swing was now much more steady, much more consistent.   

so, now we know the shaft we need, and we know how we feel about toe-hang.   it's time to pick a putter.   (here's where we get frustrated)

after eliminating benentari, Tualon, and PXG putters, becuse, frankly, I just didn't like them, I was left with - 

Scotty Cameron - newport 2 notchback
Scotty Cameron - Futura
Ping - Sigma G Kinloch
Taylor Made - Spider

The first easy removal here was the Ping.   It is nearly an identical putter to the Newport 2, (weight, shape, etc.) but I think the Scotty looks much better and the face feels better.  
Ping out.  

Next removal was the Futura.   I don't have a great reason for this other than, I just don't like it.   
Futura out.  

So I was left with the Newport 2 and the Spider.   I went back and forth hitting these from different distances for about 30 min.  I liked hitting these both quite a bit.   These both created a much better stroke than my current putter and felt better.  

here's the deal.   I was making more putts with the Spider.   

but, on the other hand, I like the look and feel of the Newport better.   Frankly, I dislike the Spider and think it looks stupid.   I love the Scotty and think it looks fantastic.   but, you can't argue with results.  I was making more putts with the damn spider.   

So, I left.  I said I'd be back once I came to grips with my emotions.   Was I just putting better with the Spider that day?  or will I always?    I mean, I here to save strokes, not just get pretty stuff, right?  ugh.  

 

anyone have any thoughts?   Anyone wanna talk me down from the ledge of buying a stupid Spider?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

SAM PuttLab Report - Chad Miller SAM Putter Fitting Report 12.11.17.pdf

[Pretzel]

As much as I hate to say it, as a Notchback user myself, you should probably use whatever putter works best for you. I would go back and try both the Notchback and the Spider again, if they'll let you, and see if the difference is still noticable. If there is still a difference (and you aren't forcing them to putt the same), then get the Spider. If there isn't a difference, or you putt better with the Scotty, then pick whichever one you want since it was a one-day fluke. 

Something else to consider is you make more putts when you're confident in yourself and the putter. If you putt the two equally well in a lab, which will you feel better with on the course? If you putt one better in the lab than the other, though, it will be easy to be confident since you know you made the best choice.

Something else to note is that the Newport 2 Notchback has about 45* of toe hang and the Spider has 38*, assuming it's the Tour Red or Tour Black model. The Spider has slightly less toe hang, but they do both still have toe hang (as did all of the putters you tried out). Did you determine that you wanted moderate toe hang, or that you wanted a face balanced putter? If you want a face balanced putter, none of the ones you looked at fit the bill.

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, lastings said:

It was cool.  I learned a ton about putters and putter fitting.   I learned a lot about how putter shapes and weights suit different strokes.

I don't think your "stroke" really fits a particular putter or not. Toe hang or not, center shafted or not, mallet or blade.

I believe fairly strongly that your putter should be something that you can:

• Aim properly.
• Control distance with properly.
• Deliver properly.

The first is a matter of shape - lines, head shape, etc.

The second is a matter of weight distribution. Your stroke matters quite a bit here, too.

The third is often a matter of tweaking your loft, adjusting/improving your stroke, etc. Regardless of the putter you use, if you hit down -2° with +5° of delivered loft, you're not going to be the putter you can be.

I don't think the design of the putter has as much influence on #3 as many people think.

I don't think that there are "nine putting strokes" and that your putter influences them very much, but others do: https://bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com.

22 minutes ago, lastings said:

1) Toe hang is my enemy.  [toe hang, in simplest terms, is when you balance your putter shaft on your finger, the degree to which the toe hangs towards the ground.]  the more toe hang your putter has, the more the club promotes head rotation in your swing.

I disagree here. The forces required here are incredibly small and easily "forced" or "overcome" by simply holding the putter with your hands with enough force to lift it off the ground, which you must do to putt anyway. The putter will rotate as your hands rotate.

Can a highly sensitive putter feel a little bit of tiny extra weight or torque? Sure, if they're highly sensitive. Does it affect much at all? No. The torques are very very very small.

22 minutes ago, lastings said:

2) my hands have a tendency to move independently from my body, rather than all as a unit.   This is created, or at least exaggerated, by the fact that I am tall (6'2") and I have to lean over quite a bit to putt, even though my current putter is 35".

35" is pretty good for a 6'2" guy. I fit a lot of people into 33" putters, rarely even 34"… most people have a putter that is too tall for them.

I doubt making your hands go an inch or so lower would dramatically change the way your arms move "independently" from your body.

22 minutes ago, lastings said:

In conjunction with the Sam putt lab, we took slow motion video of my putting stroke from above.    reviewing those results, it became evidently clear that while I was producing consistent results, these was nothing consistent about my swing.

I doubt that changing your putter head will change that very much. Change the weight, improving your stroke, etc. could do it.

22 minutes ago, lastings said:

This, as I had mentioned, was a game changer.   This drastically quieted my hands.   Review of slow motion video showed just as much.   The swing was now much more steady, much more consistent.

Right, so changing the weight.

22 minutes ago, lastings said:

but, on the other hand, I like the look and feel of the Newport better.   Frankly, I dislike the Spider and think it looks stupid.   I love the Scotty and think it looks fantastic.   but, you can't argue with results.  I was making more putts with the damn spider.

That's an incredibly small sample size.

And who knows if the Spider just fits your current compensations better or what.

Look, history is littered with guys who will switch putters, or a driver, or whatever, and get hot for a little. Then they cool off. Sometimes they go back to what they used to use, and get hot again, or at least perform well again.

I'm reluctant to call what you did a "putter fitting." It sounds like a guy told you some things that sounded like they could be true, some ages old BS about toe hang, in an attempt to sell you a putter. You putted for a bit, and really have no idea what is truly the best combination of the three points above. Really, you didn't even seem to do much measuring of which putter you could aim, what the impact dynamics were like, or which allowed you to control the distance the most.

You just took a guided tour of some putters and hit them and saw what felt good.

It's your money, and you wouldn't be getting an Edel fitting from me, but that's why I do Edel fittings: we directly address the first two points, and the third point is relatively weak: I think compensations people make in their putting stroke are partly due to the fact that the first and second points are off. They develop a pull stroke because they aim right, or vice versa. Their ball position is back so they learn to flip a little. Whatever…

So, I'll just ask… why didn't you get an Edel fitting?

11 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

Something else to note is that the Newport 2 Notchback has about 45* of toe hang and the Spider has 38*, assuming it's the Tour Red or Tour Black model. The Spider has slightly less toe hang, but they do both still have toe hang (as did all of the putters you tried out). Did you determine that you wanted moderate toe hang, or that you wanted a face balanced putter? If you want a face balanced putter, none of the ones you looked at fit the bill.

Right (though maybe with the 38" shaft and the counter-weight, it changes things a bit). The "fitting" reads like a bit of a sham if you ask me.

[lastings]

1 hour ago, Pretzel said:

If there isn't a difference, or you putt better with the Scotty, then pick whichever one you want since it was a one-day fluke. 

 

yep.  this is why I didn't buy one that day.    I'm free to come back as much as needed until I find the right one for me.  

 

1 hour ago, Pretzel said:

Did you determine that you wanted moderate toe hang, or that you wanted a face balanced putter? If you want a face balanced putter, none of the ones you looked at fit the bill.

moderate toe hang, was the suggestion.  

 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I'm reluctant to call what you did a "putter fitting." It sounds like a guy told you some things that sounded like they could be true, some ages old BS about toe hang, in an attempt to sell you a putter. You putted for a bit, and really have no idea what is truly the best combination of the three points above. Really, you didn't even seem to do much measuring of which putter you could aim, what the impact dynamics were like, or which allowed you to control the distance the most.

This is not entirely accurate.  There were aim measurements.  I eliminated quite a few putters and styles of putters that way.   We spent time on impact dynamics as well, and came to some conclusions on loft and lie adjustments. I just didn't really address a lot of that part, as I already wrote a book as it is. 

 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

So, I'll just ask… why didn't you get an Edel fitting?

honestly..   aesthetically, I don't really like the look of Edel putters.   

 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

a bunch of other stuff

honestly, I appreciate the feedback.   maybe some of it was BS and maybe some wasn't.   I already mentioned that the toe-hang wasn't really the change that had the biggest impact.   But, looking at the slow-motion path of my putter once I switched to the counter-balanced longer shaft, the results were pretty undeniable.  I'm sure there may have been things that you would have done in a fitting that he didn't, and maybe you would have spotted something he didn't, but, as you once mentioned, it's a stick that is attached to a flat piece of metal.   The shaft helps to solve a major issue, and If we can solve one major issue, working on my stroke should be able to help improve the rest.  

Edited December 19, 2017 by lastings

[Release]

So you got fit for the best weaponry but never mentioned the guidance system.

The mumbo jumbo of the equipment and the delivery system ( putting stroke ) means nothing if the aim is off. The best equipment and the best putting stroke will not improve your putting if your aim is off.

What you think you';re aiming and lined up oftentimes is quite different than the actual line.  I think someone had done a study on this issue and proven that many of us have vision distorted when we looked down and sideways to the putting line.   Ernie Els had help to regain his putting mojo.

https://www.sbnation.com/golf/2012/7/23/3176784/ernie-els-2012-british-open-winner-putting-eye-lady

[inthecup]

Erik, have you ever used Sam Put Lab?

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, inthecup said:

Erik, have you ever used Sam Put Lab?

We've owned and used a SAM PuttLab for as long as I've been instructing.

P.S. You can't do it because you don't have the PDF, nor am I suggesting you should have, but out of curiosity I searched LSW: we mentioned it on five different pages.

[billchao]

4 hours ago, lastings said:

So I was left with the Newport 2 and the Spider.

You aim these two the same? Interesting. I would think a mallet and a bastard blade would aim differently.

2 hours ago, lastings said:

honestly..   aesthetically, I don't really like the look of Edel putters.

You and I have very different style preferences. Edels are clean, sleek, and classic looking to me. They'll still look good ten, twenty years from now (and are customizable with stamping!), and that's without getting into the benefits of their fitting process.

The Spider and the Notchback are the putter equivalent of a powder blue tuxedo, IMO.

[lastings]

4 minutes ago, billchao said:

You aim these two the same? Interesting. I would think a mallet and a bastard blade would aim differently.

Interesting, right?  but I do.  lined them both up with the laser.   both center hole.   Most blades I lined up very well, most mallets I lined up quite poorly.  Something different about that spider, I can't really put my finger on it.   even the one that had no center aim-line on it, no problem lining it up dead straight.   

 

7 minutes ago, billchao said:

The Spider and the Notchback are the putter equivalent of a powder blue tuxedo, IMO.

I absolutely agree with you on the Spider.  my reluctance to allow that futuristic spaceship in my bag was the main reason I didn't walk out the door with it.   

Notchback is a different story.   Excellent looking putter, I think.  

 

[inthecup]

15 hours ago, iacas said:

We've owned and used a SAM PuttLab for as long as I've been instructing.

P.S. You can't do it because you don't have the PDF, nor am I suggesting you should have, but out of curiosity I searched LSW: we mentioned it on five different pages.

Sorry I read that years ago and did not recall that detail.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, inthecup said:

Sorry I read that years ago and did not recall that detail.

I wouldn't have expected you to. But why did you ask?

[inthecup]

Just now, iacas said:

I wouldn't have expected you to. But why did you ask?

Your opinions are very deep rooted.  I wanted to know the depth of your knowledge of SAM putt lab.  I read this thread yesterday but at the time it sounded to me like you questioned its usefulness.

[iacas]

32 minutes ago, inthecup said:

Your opinions are very deep rooted.  I wanted to know the depth of your knowledge of SAM putt lab.  I read this thread yesterday but at the time it sounded to me like you questioned its usefulness.

I mostly question the "toe hang" bit and how it relates to a stroke given the negligible forces required to overcome "toe hang." That the OP stated that toe hang was the death of him and then ended up with a half-toe-hang putter speaks to the BS that putter fitters offer to people, IMO.

I wouldn't say my opinions on putting are deeply rooted. I use the SAM several times per week, many weeks… and I plan to visit Bruce at some point, and David Orr as well, and am open to hearing about how different putters affect things (or not).

[lastings]

20 minutes ago, iacas said:

That the OP stated that toe hang was the death of him

Technically, I said it was my enemy.  

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, lastings said:

Technically, I said it was my enemy.  

Okay. I didn't quote you. I paraphrased. Toe hang is your enemy, and you ended up with putters that still have a fair amount of toe hang.

Just seems kinda goofy to me… while at the same time showing that the torques are negligible and toe hang doesn't actually matter much.

[lastings]

fair enough.   but, to be fair as well, he did try to push the Scotty cameron Futura on me as well. to which I simply dismissed by saying "I don't like that".  

In all honesty, do you think I should get an Edel fitting?   From what you've come to understand from the book I wrote up there,  do you think it would benefit me?   

The place near me that does have Edel Fitting has a holiday special on fitting prices and I want to get a wedge fitting as well, anyways.  

 

 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, lastings said:

fair enough.   but, to be fair as well, he did try to push the Scotty cameron Futura on me as well. to which I simply dismissed by saying "I don't like that".  

In all honesty, do you think I should get an Edel fitting?   From what you've come to understand from the book I wrote up there,  do you think it would benefit me?   

The place near me that does have Edel Fitting has a holiday special on fitting prices and I want to get a wedge fitting as well, anyways.

I don't stand to gain anything by having you do an Edel fitting.

If the place near by has a good reputation (i.e. they do Edel fittings properly), I'd recommend them, as I have since we first got into the system. It makes sense to me, and I've seen a LOT of people have a LOT of success with it. It's your putter for life.

They can build you a 38" putter with a counterweight. That's well within their capabilities. (You might also find a 36" putter with a counterweight is just as proficient at quieting your hands, which I suspect has a very good chance of being true…).

I don't know what the fitting fee is, and I can't tell people how to spend their money. I've fit hundreds of Edel putters and only once did someone choose not to order one. He really couldn't aim anything BUT the Edel well at all, and yet he just didn't like the look of the Edel putter (it was an unusual looking combination of the weiner head plus a center-shaft-like hosel. It did look weird, but he aimed it dead center every time.)

It's up to you man. If you really don't think you'll ever like the look of an Edel, don't waste your time.

I just try to help people out where I can. I believe in Edel's system for their Classic series of putters. And I love the wedges. But it's your time and money.

[b101]

31 minutes ago, lastings said:

fair enough.   but, to be fair as well, he did try to push the Scotty cameron Futura on me as well. to which I simply dismissed by saying "I don't like that".  

In all honesty, do you think I should get an Edel fitting?   From what you've come to understand from the book I wrote up there,  do you think it would benefit me?   

The place near me that does have Edel Fitting has a holiday special on fitting prices and I want to get a wedge fitting as well, anyways.  

Just to second what @iacas is suggesting, I can't recommend the Edel fittings enough. I decided to have my putter fitting before my wedges and was basically told exactly what you were - there were lots of things to work on with my stroke, but "here's a SeeMore that works quite well, take that". At the time, I didn't know much different, and the SeeMore is nice and works pretty well, but the next time I get a putter, I'll definitely do the Edel fitting - there's so much with aiming, sight lines and particularly for me, weight distribution that would tip the balance in the favour of the Edel process.

Having had their wedge fittings, I can't recommend it enough. See below for my write-up - it's just such a different experience:

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by b101