Why Would I Not Play the Longest, Most Forgiving Irons?

[FrivolouslyWasted]

22 hours ago, NM Golf said:

First off, I don't like the look of GI irons. They look huge and unwieldy. They have thick soles and just don't give me any confidence that I will be able to hit them the way I like. Second, they go too far. I don't need to hit a 9 iron 200 yards. The lofts on modern GI irons are stupid strong. Also, they launch too high. I hit my forged blades high, but I can knock them down if I need to. That is not the case for GI Irons, they are designed to launch high and are near impossible for me to hit on a decent trajectory. 

I put away my last set of GI irons about 15-20 years ago and fell in love with forged blades. Working at a golf course I get to hit most of the new clubs that come out each year including all the super GI stuff and its not for me.

All of this. Even though I’m not a great player, I love forged blades. I like the looks, the feel, the compact head size and the traditional lofts. I can carry only 3 wedges because there’s no gap to fill between my PW and SW. I feel it’s better to have the biggest gaps at the top of the set, not the bottom. 

 

My swing, especially with my irons, is really starting to improve, so I’m loving these things more every time I go out. Once you pure a ball with a good forged blade it’s really hard to put them down

[Vinny Cap]

On 9/10/2018 at 8:43 AM, FrivolouslyWasted said:

This feeling is why I have such a difficult time getting away from blades, even though I’m not nearly good enough to play them, according to the conventional wisdom. I’m basically just addicted to the dopamine rush I get from those few perfect strikes I hit each round and I’m just chasing that dragon around the course every week.

 

I just want to improve my swing so I can have that feeling more often. I’m having to wait too long between fixes.

Awesome statement and 100% true.  Curious as to what irons you play?

[FrivolouslyWasted]

18 minutes ago, Vinny Cap said:

Awesome statement and 100% true.  Curious as to what irons you play?

I mostly play my early 80s Wilson Staff FG-17s these days, but I occasionally swap them with my ‘66 Wilson Dynapowers. They’re unforgiving and probably a couple clubs shorter than modern sticks, but when I hit em right they make me feel like a God

[Vinny Cap]

36 minutes ago, FrivolouslyWasted said:

I mostly play my early 80s Wilson Staff FG-17s these days, but I occasionally swap them with my ‘66 Wilson Dynapowers. They’re unforgiving and probably a couple clubs shorter than modern sticks, but when I hit em right they make me feel like a God

Those FG17 are pretty sweet looking.  Wonder if you have the same dynapowers I have?

I also like that "God Like Feel" when hitting a blade pure and true... total Nirvana!

[FrivolouslyWasted]

7 hours ago, Vinny Cap said:

Those FG17 are pretty sweet looking.  Wonder if you have the same dynapowers I have?

I also like that "God Like Feel" when hitting a blade pure and true... total Nirvana!

That looks like a 1960-61 model. That’s a cool set. Wilson made some really beautiful irons. I've collected a few sets in recent months and love them all.

[Vinny Cap]

13 hours ago, FrivolouslyWasted said:

That looks like a 1960-61 model. That’s a cool set. Wilson made some really beautiful irons. I've collected a few sets in recent months and love them all.

Thanks!  I thought 70's ish as this was my dad's old bag but if they are 60's ish now I wanna take them to the range and see if I can hit them.  Might do that Fri night.

[FrivolouslyWasted]

11 hours ago, Vinny Cap said:

Thanks!  I thought 70's ish as this was my dad's old bag but if they are 60's ish now I wanna take them to the range and see if I can hit them.  Might do that Fri night.

Have fun. I’ve loved every old Wilson blade I’ve ever struck. The sweet spot is about the size of a steel molecule, but when you find it it’s better than sex

[bforrester]

1.  Don't need more yards

2.  Difficulty in controlling height and spin on the ball with GI irons

3.  GI Offset might cause better players issues

4.  Fatter soles may not interact with the turf in the manner a better player desires

5.  Lack of feedback disguises misses

A better question would be why would a better player, who is presumably a consistent ball-striker, want to play a GI iron?  Frankly, I wouldn't want a 30 yard gap from my PW to my GW or GW to SW/LW.  165 yards is plenty for a 7i, for my game.

Edited September 28, 2018 by bforrester

[mike smith]

First, I'm not a great golfer, but in general a good athlete. The only GI irons I've ever hit that felt good were the original callaway big bertha. I know testing shows thar GI irons are more forgiving, but how forgiving? I don't think much. Mishits go a couple yards further than blades. You have to hit it on the nose with any club. So mostly I golf wilson blades and do OK. I like the better feel and increased short iron accuracy I have.

  I have a feeling as pros seem to switch to cavity backs that it might be marketing. They can play anything, and if a 6 figure check is wrapped around a shaft what the heck. Anyway it seems to me marketing is the main reason for most golf stuff. So I hit what I want because nobody in their right mind would give me a nickel for playing golf.

[Buckeyebowman]

On 9/7/2018 at 10:24 AM, iacas said:

My answers? Control. Feel. Looks.

I don't like how GI clubs look, feel, or perform.

https://clubsg.skygolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/5-3722-Blades_Versus_Cavity_Backs_A_Golf_Club_Epiphany.html

Too much to quote, but there you go.

Interesting link! And I have to agree. I grew up in the era before GI irons. All that existed were musclebacks, so, we learned to play them. 

Think about it. you can take the total mass of an iron clubhead, spread it all around to compensate for mishits, and come up with a sort of a compromise club that will will make quite a few people happier in that their misses aren't all that bad, but it will be far from the best clubhead you could design!

I've said it before on this forum that the old style musclebacks "forced" us to be more precise in our swings. You take that clubhead mass, confine it to a smaller space, and deliver it squarely into the back of a golf ball, and just watch how it flies! You will be amazed! 

[Puttin4Dough]

On 9/7/2018 at 12:15 PM, Unforgiven93 said:

I'm trying to understand why better players don't use game improvement irons.  The general reasons you hear are that better players like workability and feel over forgiveness.  Well, I'm a better player, and I don't understand why that would be the case. I am aiming at the center of the green anywhere outside about 135 yards, and generally trying to hit it straight about 95% of the time.  It isn't like better players don't still miss hit the ball. So, someone convince me I should keep my semi-players irons instead of going to game improvement. 

The reason I'm asking is because I'm considering getting new irons.  I have Z765s (cavity back player's iron) right now, and I'm thinking about getting a few extra yards and some extra forgiveness by going to the new Z585 game improvement irons.  I don't care about looks, I want lower scores.  This comparison from mygolfspy of the 65 series shows my point: https://mygolfspy.com/tested-2017-srixon-z-series-irons/

565 is game improvement, 765 is cavity back player's iron, 965 is a blade. 

The game improvement iron is more accurate in every case, and longer in two of the 3 cases (although it does have slightly lower launch and spin).

Can you all provide some thoughts on this?  Does it make sense for me to go to a game improvement iron?

If your average approach shot requires a 7 iron or more lofted, then the differences between the two will be less relevant.  But.....if there's even a 1% overall chance of a better shot with the GI, why wouldn't you play them?  There's no trophy for "I played harder-to-hit irons and lost by 1 stroke".  Doesn't matter, you lost by 1 stroke.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Puttin4Dough

[ColeThornton]

An open letter to Ping, TaylorMade, Callaway, Titleist, Mizuno, etc...   I have been an avid golfer for over 50 years now.   At my best, years ago, I was near scratch and still play to a single digit.   I'm one of those players, a manufacturers dream, that wants all the help I can get.   All you have to say is bigger sweet spot and I'm in.   I was playing Wilson Staff blades in HS when one of my team mates got the first set of ping cavity back irons I had ever seen.   His game improved overnight and so did mine when I got my first set years later.   It is my opinion, that I am not the only "good" golfer that wants to play the most forgiving irons I can find.   At a recent tour event it was difficult to find a tour player that didn't have at least one cavity back iron or utility or hybrid in their bag, so I know I'm not the only decent player that uses this type of club.   You know the numbers better than me, isn't a very high percentage of your sales in the game improvement or super game improvement category?  It must be, as every manufacturer seems to have 2 or 3 of these models adding up to 20 - 30 such models in the market place.   That would make, on average a 3 - 5% market share for each model.   

The problem I have, is that knowing a lot of good players use these irons why in the world would you assume that every player that uses them fights a slice or hitting the ball right.   The reason I have come to this conclusion, is that out of 30 models there is not one made that is not offset!   I like many good players do not fight a slice, I would even venture to say there are some mid and high handicap players whose misses are generally left and not right.   That being said and from reading golf forums there seems to be maybe as many as 10 - 20% of the players using game improvement irons that would prefer one with no or little offset.   Obviously you know more about your business than I do, but if someone introduced the first game improvement iron with no or little offset and it had a 10 - 20% market share instead of fighting over the3 - 5% share because yours is offset like everyone elses, wouldn't that be a good thing?

After watching the new models come out for the past 30 years I've pretty much given up on a game improvement iron without a lot of offset.   It just amazes me that not one of you guys are even willing to try just one offering.   My prediction, if you do, is that it will be your most popular new model, until your competitors copy you.   They'll have to when they realize there really is a market for a non offset super gi iron.

Thanks

 

[iacas]

@ColeThornton, offset helps to get a lot of those game-improvement features that you want by moving the CG even further back from the shaft axis. If you took a GI club and just made it zero offset… it would perform much worse than you're expecting.

There's nothing inherent in offset that means "fights a slice" except for the fact that golfers tend to see the face as open and thus align the face left (for a righty), or closed.

[ColeThornton]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

@ColeThornton, offset helps to get a lot of those game-improvement features that you want by moving the CG even further back from the shaft axis. If you took a GI club and just made it zero offset… it would perform much worse than you're expecting.

There's nothing inherent in offset that means "fights a slice" except for the fact that golfers tend to see the face as open and thus align the face left (for a righty), or closed.

I understand the concept of the weight being further back to affect trajectory.   As my letter stated we're talking about better players who use game improvement irons.   Most better players do not struggle to get the ball air born, even Rickie Fowler recently put a GI 4i in the bag.   With so much weight being low in GI irons and the new flex faces that launch the ball higher to begin with the difference in the weight moving forward less than 1/4" in my opinion would not effect better players negatively.   Many of them might even prefer a slightly lower flight.   There is more to the offset encouraging the ball going left than just the appearance at address-

1. Squaring the Clubface and Offset: "The more offset in the clubhead, the more time the golfer has on the downswing to rotate the face of the clubhead back around in order to arrive at impact closer to being square to the target line. In other words, offset can help a golfer come closer to squaring the face at impact because the clubface arrives at impact a split-second later than with a club that has no offset. So this benefit of offset is to help reduce the amount the golfer may slice or fade the ball."

I can see this myself, in that my dispersion pattern with my hybrids is right of my irons.   My hybrids are not offset.   I would rather not have to aim differently or change my swing when hitting my 5 iron / 4 hybrid.   Interesting, my irons and hybrids are a matched set where the player picks which irons he replaces with the hybrids.   But, due to the difference in offset they play differently in this regard.

In any event, there are many players who would like a GI/SGI iron with little offset.   I'll buy two sets the day they come out, as long as they feature all the other benefits other than the offset.

Thanks for your reply!

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by ColeThornton

[Carl3]

2 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

I can see this myself, in that my dispersion pattern with my hybrids is right of my irons.   My hybrids are not offset.   I would rather not have to aim differently or change my swing when hitting my 5 iron / 4 hybrid.   Interesting, my irons and hybrids are a matched set where the player picks which irons he replaces with the hybrids.   But, due to the difference in offset they play differently in this regard.

I have the opposite problem in that my Ping G30 hybrids have more offset that my Ping e1 irons. I really have to focus and concentrate so as not to end up with a heavy draw or worse on my hybrids. The G30 series is more game improvement than my irons. Would like to find a hybrid or two that isn't so offset, but I guess that comes with the territory on hybrids.

[ColeThornton]

28 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

I have the opposite problem in that my Ping G30 hybrids have more offset that my Ping e1 irons. I really have to focus and concentrate so as not to end up with a heavy draw or worse on my hybrids. The G30 series is more game improvement than my irons. Would like to find a hybrid or two that isn't so offset, but I guess that comes with the territory on hybrids.

Interesting that you can see the difference the other way.   Because hybrids resemble small woods, I was under the impression there were many that were not offset.   

hybrid+golf+clubs - Google Search

 

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

offset helps to get a lot of those game-improvement features that you want by moving the CG even further back from the shaft axis. If you took a GI club and just made it zero offset… it would perform much worse than you're expecting.

So I read this...

1 hour ago, ColeThornton said:

In any event, there are many players who would like a GI/SGI iron with little offset

I think some explaining is needed here. I’m not very knowledgeable in this area. What makes you think a GI club will give you those GI features if the offset was gone?

Edited January 22, 2019 by Vinsk

[iacas]

1 hour ago, ColeThornton said:

I understand the concept of the weight being further back to affect trajectory.   As my letter stated we're talking about better players who use game improvement irons. Most better players do not struggle to get the ball air born, even Rickie Fowler recently put a GI 4i in the bag.

Then why use GI irons?

1 hour ago, ColeThornton said:

With so much weight being low in GI irons and the new flex faces that launch the ball higher to begin with the difference in the weight moving forward less than 1/4" in my opinion would not effect better players negatively.

I could ask some engineers about it, but I think they'd say that they continue to do what they continue to do for a reason, not because it would "not affect better players." Also, again, GI irons aren't really for "better players."

1 hour ago, ColeThornton said:

Many of them might even prefer a slightly lower flight.

And they can choose a less-GI iron to get that, which will have less offset.

1 hour ago, ColeThornton said:

1. Squaring the Clubface and Offset: "The more offset in the clubhead, the more time the golfer has on the downswing to rotate the face of the clubhead back around in order to arrive at impact closer to being square to the target line. In other words, offset can help a golfer come closer to squaring the face at impact because the clubface arrives at impact a split-second later than with a club that has no offset. So this benefit of offset is to help reduce the amount the golfer may slice or fade the ball."

Yeah, that's an old belief that's basically complete bull.

I've done the math and the "extra time" is so small that even with unrealistically high rates of closure (of the clubface), a muscle back to a severely offset iron equates to something like < 1° difference in the face angle at impact.

So again… the main benefit of offset for slicers is that they tend to aim the clubface closed at setup.

3 hours ago, ColeThornton said:

All you have to say is bigger sweet spot and I'm in.

The sweet spot, btw, is the same in all clubs. It's a point in space, projected through the face, and it's not "larger" or "smaller."

Clubs are just more forgiving or not, to off-center hits, so again… you'd be compromising some of that functionality by changing the offset.

In other words, there are clubs like cavity-backs which offer some of the benefits of the GI clubs and some of the benefits of muscle backs (like less offset).