Strike Rules All!

[SPJr]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

Heck, I'm not sure I qualify for that…

My opinion: other things matter, too.

Fair enough. I suppose I exaggerated.

It just makes so much sense for me, as I continue to try to improve.

I look at it like this: The following two things are the only things that are worth my time right now.

1) Proper Swing Mechanics (I have a coach I lean on for this and I obssesively record my swings for review).

2) Strike Pattern.

To me, it seems like nothing else matters until I can sort these two things out.

Am I off base here?

Edited September 12, 2018 by SPJr

[jimnm]

Game management is a good thing to put on the list and can save strokes. This can be worked on in parallel with swing mechanics. 

[SPJr]

16 minutes ago, jimnm said:

Game management is a good thing to put on the list and can save strokes. This can be worked on in parallel with swing mechanics. 

Sure, but does it really matter how I plan to play a hole if I can't execute because I don't have the fundamentals I mentioned earlier?

Edited September 12, 2018 by SPJr

[Pretzel]

3 hours ago, SPJr said:

It's possible, maybe. I won't deny that. But I don't buy into that at all.

I also know that I'm going to catch some grief for this -but- I feel like the differences in shafts are so miniscule that they really don't matter until you are a high level expert golfer who is looking to maximize output.

I know this video has been posted somewhere on this site before.

I take a little bit of issue with that video for one specific reason, and that's that it depends more heavily on the individual than he lets on.

My swing doesn't have the most elegant transition, and it's got a pretty decent amount of lag to it that I hold a ways into the downswing. I've broken a ladies flex graphite shaft on a 7 iron before (snapped at impact when I was unloading and it hit the ground through the ball). I can feel a large difference between a stiff and an x-flex shaft and in my testing my dispersion was significantly hurt by playing with a stiff compared to an x-flex when I reshafted my driver with a AD-DI 7s for a few months. I swapped it out for the current AD-DI 8x that I'm using and noticed an instant difference that showed itself both on the course and on the launch monitor. If I swing a regular flex shaft my impacts kind of go all over the clubface. If I swung it enough to get used to it I could make it work, but it's better and easier to just get a shaft that fits properly to begin with.

If you have a very smooth and even swing shaft flex won't be much of an issue. If you have a swing that's more extreme, it'll make a bigger difference. I think the difference between shaft profiles of the same stiffness are far less important than people make them out to be, but they're nice for fine tuning numbers and giving the golfer the feel they're looking for. I loved the feel of the Bi-Matrix shaft I used to use, and it gave good spin numbers, but I refuse to use another one after I had two of them fail at the bond between graphite and steel in tournaments in the same summer. 

16 minutes ago, SPJr said:

Fair enough. I suppose I exaggerated.

It just makes so much sense for me, as I continue to try to improve.

I look at it like this: The following two things are the only things that are worth my time right now.

1) Proper Swing Mechanics (I have a coach I lean on for this and I obssesively record my swings for review).

2) Strike Pattern.

To me, it seems like nothing else matters until I can sort these two things out.

Am I off base here?

I would say you should focus first and foremost on point #1 here, and then point #2 will be a result of that after you have put in enough swings and hours to ingrain good swing habits. It's bad to focus too much on whether or not you're making solid contact and hitting good shots when you're trying to change your swing, because almost every time you change something it'll be awkward and you'll hit it poorly for a while. It's good to know how solid your contact usually is and to know if you have a tendency to miss somewhere on the clubface, but I would focus on mechanics over the impact itself since good impact goes hand in hand with good mechanics over time.

[SPJr]

12 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

I take a little bit of issue with that video for one specific reason, and that's that it depends more heavily on the individual than he lets on.

Really? I think that is exactly what he is saying in this video. That it depends heavily on the individual.

If I remember right, he makes a point (more than once) that they may be self-correcting and doing other things to get some of the results they are getting. Maybe I need to go back and re-watch it.

The point isn't that shaft flex doesn't matter - The point is that it isn't necessarily all it's worked up to be and doesn't necessarily matter. But it's all about the individual. 

At least, that's what I get from it.

12 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

I think the difference between shaft profiles of the same stiffness are far less important than people make them out to be, but they're nice for fine tuning numbers and giving the golfer the feel they're looking for.

Exactly. I agree. The higher your swing speed the more all of that stuff matters. But for the average golfer, I don't agree that it matters all that much. 

12 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

I would say you should focus first and foremost on point #1 here, and then point #2 will be a result of that after you have put in enough swings and hours to ingrain good swing habits. 

Fair point. I appreciate the advice.

Edited September 12, 2018 by SPJr

[iacas]

38 minutes ago, SPJr said:

1) Proper Swing Mechanics (I have a coach I lean on for this and I obssesively record my swings for review).

2) Strike Pattern.

I could make the argument that #1 includes #2.

If "strike" was all that mattered, you'd learn golf very differently. I can hit the center of the face every - and I do mean every - time… if I only hit the ball five feet or so at a time.

Get my point? 🙂

[SPJr]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

I could make the argument that #1 includes #2.

Hmmmmm.... It's a byproduct, I suppose

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

If "strike" was all that mattered, you'd learn golf very differently. I can hit the center of the face every - and I do mean every - time… if I only hit the ball five feet or so at a time.

Well yeah... That's the irony of golf isn't it?

We could all hit the ball much straighter if we would settle on lesser distances. But we have this inner struggle to smash it.

Isn't that why so many lessons begin with chipping and pitch shots and then work their way back? 

But I understand your point.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, SPJr said:

Isn't that why so many lessons begin with chipping and pitch shots and then work their way back?

Ugh, I hope not.

[Pretzel]

As some context for how I learned that #1 included #2, I was in your position before @SPJr. I was struggling along on the high school team with a handicap of about 20, fighting chunked shots, bladed shots, and everything in between. I had a good short game and my scrambling percentage was about 50% since I had spent a lot of time practicing on the chipping green since it was free (good for a kid without a job) and it was what everyone said was the key to low scores. 

Then I realized that I wasn't really getting near the green in regulation all that often. If I could ensure I had a nGIR (near-GIR) every hole I would've dropped my scores down by quite a bit. But instead I was slicing it OB, coming up short in water hazards, taking 3 to get to a par 4 green because I topped my approach, etc. I started to spend more time on the driving range and would hit balls until the skin on my hands started to tear but I still didn't see a whole lot of improvement even though I was trying really hard to hit everything solid.

When I started taking more regular lessons I noticed things getting worse, in terms of hitting stuff solidly, and was initially discouraged. I was fighting the changes because they made me worse from my perspective of trying to hit better shots. It was only once I finally figured I had tried about everything besides actually committing to the swing changes that I started to see real improvement in my ballstriking. As I became more of a stupid monkey and less of a dig it out of the dirt kind of golfer I noticed better and better results until I managed to get to my peak of about +2 at the end of high school before college started. 

I've since slid backwards due to a lack of practice (I'd estimate I'm probably about a 2 or a 3 right now), but the building blocks have stuck with me. If I were to really go out and play multiple times a week again I'm fairly confident I could return to my peak form in a year or two, it would just be a challenge to find the time needed for that. As it stands now I play well enough to continue having fun whenever I go out and I can make what I consider reasonably solid contact on almost every swing even though I wouldn't consider all my swings to be hitting the sweet spot of the club. It just might be a couple grooves high or low on the face, or a bit off the toe or heel. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Pretzel

[SPJr]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Ugh, I hope not.

I must be missing the point then.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, SPJr said:

I must be missing the point then.

The point there was that I almost never teach chipping and pitching (never mind the fact that I don't like to use the word "pitching" to mean "a swing shorter than a full swing but longer than a chipping motion at all). Heck, even the setup, grip, and motions for chipping are different than for a full swing.

So that's my point there - that I hate it when golf instructors start with a "chipping" motion as if it's basically just a shorter full swing motion. It's not.

[SPJr]

15 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

As some context for how I learned that #1 included #2, I was in your position before @SPJr....

When I started taking more regular lessons I noticed things getting worse, in terms of hitting stuff solidly, and was initially discouraged. I was fighting the changes because they made me worse from my perspective of trying to hit better shots. It was only once I finally figured I had tried about everything besides actually committing to the swing changes that I started to see real improvement in my ballstriking. As I became more of a stupid monkey and less of a dig it out of the dirt kind of golfer I noticed better and better results until I managed to get to my peak of about +2 at the end of high school before college started. 

Sure.

This is valid and I actually agree with it. I'm sure you are correct that when you get to a point where your swing is proper and consistent, the ball-striking often times follows suit. I don't deny that at all.

It's like anything else. Basketball players who master their jump shot form and funamentals will most likely shoot a better percentage.

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

The point there was that I almost never teach chipping and pitching (never mind the fact that I don't like to use the word "pitching" to mean "a swing shorter than a full swing but longer than a chipping motion at all). Heck, even the setup, grip, and motions for chipping are different than for a full swing.

So that's my point there - that I hate it when golf instructors start with a "chipping" motion as if it's basically just a shorter full swing motion. It's not.

Gotcha.

Edited September 12, 2018 by SPJr

[jimnm]

44 minutes ago, SPJr said:

Sure, but does it really matter how I plan to play a hole if I can't execute because I don't have the fundamentals I mentioned earlier worked out? 

I think it matters. Say I have an approach shot that is 120yds to the pin with a pin placement at the front/center of a large green that is 25 yards deep or so with a sand bunker near the front of the green. Let's say my PW distance if I strike it perfectly is 120yds, but I have a tendency to chunk my irons and end up short. In this case, I would pull my 9 iron. Knowing if I come up short I still may avoid trouble. If I strike my 9i pure, I may be long but probably still on the green. 

I guess when I say game management, for me its not about planning the entire hole when I'm on the tee box, it's more of how I plan my shot and manage my miss. Knowing my tendencies, which side of the fairway should I favor? Which side of the green should I favor given the situation. Keeping these things in mind has helped me lower my scores even though my ball striking isn't the greatest. Maybe it's common sense, but in the past, I would go often go pin hunting and it would often times lead to more strokes.

This is something that I've worked on with my coach independent of working with my coach on swing mechanics. And it has helped save strokes.

 

[SPJr]

1 minute ago, jimnm said:

manage my miss

Yes. You're right.

[RFKFREAK]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I could make the argument that #1 includes #2.

If "strike" was all that mattered, you'd learn golf very differently. I can hit the center of the face every - and I do mean every - time… if I only hit the ball five feet or so at a time.

Get my point? 🙂

I probably couldn't even do that. 

[SPJr]

1 hour ago, RFKFREAK said:

I probably couldn't even do that. 

... must be the shaft.

[70sSanO]

While strike doesn't rule all, I'm old enough to remember playing with old guys tearing up courses back in the 70's with well used equipment that no one here would want to play with.  Before all the data there were a lot of golfers who could just play... like a stupid monkey, and not try to analyze everything little bit of data (there wasn't any to mess up their mind).  Geez, just hit the thing.  They did possessed 2 qualities that made them score so well... ball strike and course management.  The latter was just as important if not more.

What I take away from this is there are those who are obsessed with buying the latest or constantly upgrading their equipment to improve their game.

But... if everyone had really good ball striking skills, there would never be another Teeless Driver or GX-7 commercial.  That in itself is a plus.

John

[iacas]

8 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

But... if everyone had really good ball striking skills, there would never be another Teeless Driver or GX-7 commercial.  That in itself is a plus.

Oh brother. “Back in my day, sonny…”

Everything you said is just nostalgic bull.