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Rogue or Rogue SubZero?


klineka
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Rogue or Rogue SubZero?  

9 members have voted

  1. 1. Which model should I choose based on the info below?

    • Rogue 9 degrees with low launch/low spin shaft
      0
    • Rogue 9 degrees with mid launch/mid spin shaft
      1
    • Rogue 10.5 degrees with low launch/low spin shaft
      0
    • Rogue 10.5 degrees with mid launch/mid spin shaft
      2
    • Rogue SubZero 9 degrees with low launch/low spin shaft
      0
    • Rogue SubZero 9 degrees with mid launch/mid spin shaft
      2
    • Rogue SubZero 10.5 degrees with low launch/low spin shaft
      1
    • Rogue SubZero 10.5 degrees with mid launch/mid spin shaft
      1
    • Other (Specify in comments)
      2


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After hitting on a Trackman and realizing that my current driver is no longer fit for me, I have decided to switch to the Callaway Rogue/SubZero model but can't decide which model/shaft combo is right for me. Unfortunately since I will likely be buying used from a golf expo, I wont be able to test all of the different combinations I have listed above, so I was hoping that people on here who have more experience with drivers/fitting/launch monitors could help steer me in the right direction.

I have hit the Rogue at a local Golf Galaxy and like the appearance, sound, feel etc so I am comfortable with the club choice, just not sure which specific model of Rogue would be right for me. I have read reviews and watched videos, some people state there is a huge difference in spin, MOI, forgiveness, even face angle at address between the two models, but other reviews state the difference between the two models is only a couple hundred RPM of spin so I'm not really sure what to believe.

Current driver - TaylorMade M2, 12 degrees of loft and is in the lowest setting, (10 degrees I think), Aldilda 2KXV Orange 65 S shaft (high launch/high spin).

Some of my numbers from last night with that club (averages over 20 swings)

Club Speed 108mph (Topped out at 112 on multiple swings)

Ball Speed 155.3mph

Carry 252.9yds

Total 272.0yds

Smash Factor 1.43

AoA +4.3

Spin 2974rpm

Spin Loft 12.4

Launch Angle 14.4

Dyn. Loft 16.2

Height 118 ft

I cant decide between the regular Rogue and the Rogue SubZero, whether I should be in a 9 or 10.5 loft, and if a mid launch/mid spin or a low launch/low spin shaft would be better. I'm not picky when it comes to shafts, I have a hard time feeling differences between different shafts, so I'm wide open to suggestions. 

Edited by klineka

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Max ST LS
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood/3Hybrid
Irons: :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   MD5 54 58 degree  
Putter: :odyssey:  White Hot RX #1
Ball: :srixon: Z Star XV

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7 minutes ago, klineka said:

AoA +4.3
Spin 2974rpm
Spin Loft 12.4
Launch Angle 14.4
Dyn. Loft 16.2

Looks like you are hitting the ball low on the clubface. Your launch angle is nearly 2 degrees lower than your dynamic loft.

This is why you are getting near 3000 rpm in spin rate with a +4.3 angle of attack.

I would work on hitting the ball above center. You could probably see a drop off of nearly 750-1000 rpm in spin. You'd probably see a higher smash factor, and a lot more carry.

Not sure I would go out an buy a new club.

If you shift the strike up, you'd probably see closer to 16 degrees of launch with low 2000 rpm spin. That would gain you about 7 yards of carry.

Edited by saevel25
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Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
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2 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Looks like you are hitting the ball low on the clubface. Your launch angle is nearly 2 degrees lower than your dynamic loft.

This is why you are getting near 3000 rpm in spin rate with a +4.3 angle of attack.

I would work on hitting the ball above center. You could probably see a drop off of nearly 750-1000 rpm in spin. You'd probably see a higher smash factor, and a lot more carry.

Not sure I would go out an buy a new club.

Hm.. I didn't even give strike location a thought. When using my own tees I tend to strike it middle to upper half of the clubface based on the ball marks I can see on the face, but the rubber tee they had in the turf last night was a touch higher than where I normally tee my ball so maybe that had an affect.

I think the spot that jumped out to me the most was a +4 AoA with a 105mph+ swing speed didn't seem to fit with a 12 degree lofted driver from articles/videos I could find online. 

I will say too part of the desire for a new driver is the look/sound/feel/confidence aspect, not purely looking for increased performance/fit. 

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Max ST LS
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood/3Hybrid
Irons: :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   MD5 54 58 degree  
Putter: :odyssey:  White Hot RX #1
Ball: :srixon: Z Star XV

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I just find it strange you are producing a lower launch angle than your dynamic loft. In general, the ball is hit where the face is pointing. So, having nearly 2 degrees lower in launch angle could only be accounted for by the curvature on the clubface. Lower on the clubface produces slightly lower launched and higher spinning shots.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

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(edited)
14 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I just find it strange you are producing a lower launch angle than your dynamic loft. In general, the ball is hit where the face is pointing. So, having nearly 2 degrees lower in launch angle could only be accounted for by the curvature on the clubface. Lower on the clubface produces slightly lower launched and higher spinning shots.

Just so I understand this right, hitting higher up on the clubface would increase the launch angle and lower the spin, but the dynamic loft would likely still stay close to the same since dynamic loft is mainly the static loft of the club plus angle of attack right? Or would strike location change the dynamic loft too?

Edited by klineka

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Max ST LS
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood/3Hybrid
Irons: :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   MD5 54 58 degree  
Putter: :odyssey:  White Hot RX #1
Ball: :srixon: Z Star XV

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43 minutes ago, klineka said:

After hitting on a Trackman and realizing that my current driver is no longer fit for me, I have decided to switch to the Callaway Rogue/SubZero model but can't decide which model/shaft combo is right for me. Unfortunately since I will likely be buying used from a golf expo, I wont be able to test all of the different combinations I have listed above, so I was hoping that people on here who have more experience with drivers/fitting/launch monitors could help steer me in the right direction.

I have hit the Rogue at a local Golf Galaxy and like the appearance, sound, feel etc so I am comfortable with the club choice, just not sure which specific model of Rogue would be right for me. I have read reviews and watched videos, some people state there is a huge difference in spin, MOI, forgiveness, even face angle at address between the two models, but other reviews state the difference between the two models is only a couple hundred RPM of spin so I'm not really sure what to believe.

Current driver - TaylorMade M2, 12 degrees of loft and is in the lowest setting, (10 degrees I think), Aldilda 2KXV Orange 65 S shaft (high launch/high spin).

Some of my numbers from last night with that club (averages over 20 swings)

Club Speed 108mph (Topped out at 112 on multiple swings)

Ball Speed 155.3mph

Carry 252.9yds

Total 272.0yds

Smash Factor 1.43

AoA +4.3

Spin 2974rpm

Spin Loft 12.4

Launch Angle 14.4

Dyn. Loft 16.2

Height 118 ft

I cant decide between the regular Rogue and the Rogue SubZero, whether I should be in a 9 or 10.5 loft, and if a mid launch/mid spin or a low launch/low spin shaft would be better. I'm not picky when it comes to shafts, I have a hard time feeling differences between different shafts, so I'm wide open to suggestions. 

+4.3 AoA with a 108mph swing and only 252 carry? I agree that’s really low.

Could the shaft also be contributing to the added spin? My son is also about a 110ss but he uses a 910D2 with a 73 Diamana S shaft and doesn’t have issues with it?

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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Rogue 10.5 degrees with mid launch/mid spin shaft would probably be closest to a M1 10 degree with an Orange 2KXV though it is apples to oranges.

Of course what Saevel said is true, technique changes could settle your issues, especially as the M2 head and 2KXV shaft are both really high quality gear.

 

That said, changing drivers is fun, just be aware a Taylormade to Callaway change makes a great difference in swing feel.

The Taylormades feel like big empty bubbles while the Rogue heads feel like the weight is more compact and concentrated.

If you prefer a more compact feeling head, maybe the feel of the Rogue or Rogue Sub Zero may agree with you.

 

Another point to note is that the Rogue Sub Zero has the center of gravity much more forward than the Rogue.

You may or may not be thrown off by this feeling as the M2 center of gravity is much more backward with a large dispersed head.

Rogue Sub Zeros are among the greatest spin killers of all drivers, significantly more than the Rogue, its not Sub Zero for nothing.

Maybe the extra spin cut is good for you, maybe not.

Edited by GOATee
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13 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I just find it strange you are producing a lower launch angle than your dynamic loft. In general, the ball is hit where the face is pointing. So, having nearly 2 degrees lower in launch angle could only be accounted for by the curvature on the clubface. Lower on the clubface produces slightly lower launched and higher spinning shots.

The other possibility is that the launch monitor isn't accurately measuring something.  

Having said that, I can't disagree with anything @saevel25 says about the way the angles and spin rates and impact location should work together.  Unfortunately, its nearly impossible to us to define the best combinations for you without actually hitting each of the combinations, on a properly functioning monitor.

  • Upvote 1

Dave

:callaway: Rogue SubZero Driver

:titleist: 915F 15 Fairway, 816 H1 19 Hybrid, AP2 4 iron to PW, Vokey 52, 56, and 60 wedges, ProV1 balls 
:ping: G5i putter, B60 version
 :ping:Hoofer Bag, complete with Newport Cup logo
:footjoy::true_linkswear:, and Ashworth shoes

the only thing wrong with this car is the nut behind the wheel.

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20 minutes ago, klineka said:

Just so I understand this right, hitting higher up on the clubface would increase the launch angle and lower the spin, but the dynamic loft would likely still stay close to the same since dynamic loft is mainly the static loft of the club plus angle of attack right? Or would strike location change the dynamic loft too?

Dynamic loft is what you present at impact.

If you hit the ball more on the upper half of the clubface, the launch angle would be 16-18 degrees, and the spin would drop significantly.

Which may be a bit too high. You might need a driver that presents closer to 14 dynamic loft so you can get away with hitting the ball higher on the clubface with out really sending the ball too high.

 

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

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12 minutes ago, Lihu said:

+4.3 AoA with a 108mph swing and only 252 carry? I agree that’s really low.

Could the shaft also be contributing to the added spin? My son is also about a 110ss but he uses a 910D2 with a 73 Diamana S shaft and doesn’t have issues with it?

I don't know for certain, but yes I think that the shaft probably is contributing at least a little to the added spin since it is a high launch/high spin shaft that I was fit for back when I used to hit down on the ball and needed a higher ball flight.

10 minutes ago, GOATee said:

Rogue and Rogue Sub Zero (and Callaways in general) have a very different feel from the Taylormade M series.

The Taylormades feel like big empty bubbles while the Rogue heads feel like the weight is more compact and concentrated.

If you prefer a more compact feeling head, maybe the feel of the Rogue or Rogue Sub Zero may agree with you.

"Big empty bubble" is exactly the right feeling to describe my thoughts on the M2. I kept wanting to say it feels "hollow" (obviously they all are) but I know "hollow" wasnt the right term. You nailed it with big empty bubble. I have come to not like that feeling, and much prefer the compact, dense, almost "solid" feeling head that the Rogue provides which is probably 40-50% of the reason I am looking to switch drivers.

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The other possibility is that the launch monitor isn't accurately measuring something.  

Having said that, I can't disagree with anything @saevel25 says about the way the angles and spin rates and impact location should work together.  Unfortunately, its nearly impossible to us to define the best combinations for you without actually hitting each of the combinations, on a properly functioning monitor.

Yeah that could be possible as well, I have heard that sometimes Trackman can be off on indoor readings since the radar doesn't have as long to track the ball compared to outdoors. There were some inconsistencies I did notice with other clubs, like one shot it said I hit a 7 iron with 13,807 rpm of spin and some pitching wedges were also 12,000+ spin, neither of which seem right.

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Max ST LS
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood/3Hybrid
Irons: :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   MD5 54 58 degree  
Putter: :odyssey:  White Hot RX #1
Ball: :srixon: Z Star XV

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1 minute ago, klineka said:

"Big empty bubble" is exactly the right feeling to describe my thoughts on the M2. I kept wanting to say it feels "hollow" (obviously they all are) but I know "hollow" wasnt the right term. You nailed it with big empty bubble. I have come to not like that feeling, and much prefer the compact, dense, almost "solid" feeling head that the Rogue provides which is probably 40-50% of the reason I am looking to switch drivers.

This is the exact reason why I moved from Taylormades to Callaways and Titleists and won't consider any more Taylormades.

Taylormade increased forgiveness to an extreme degree by moving the CG so much to the borders of the head I lost the feeling of the head.

Callaways are the direct opposite.  The heads feel like you are punching the ball with a stone.

However, do note that Callaways from the Epic to the Rogue are serious spin-killers.

This goes triple for the Sub Zeros.

Basically the M2 was the spin-cutting king of 2017, the Epic Sub Zero and PING G400 LST dethroned it in 2018, and now PING can't really cut more spin on the LST so far, but Callaway cut even more spin in the Rogue Sub Zero.

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Just now, klineka said:

I don't know for certain, but yes I think that the shaft probably is contributing at least a little to the added spin since it is a high launch/high spin shaft that I was fit for back when I used to hit down on the ball and needed a higher ball flight.

Another thing I remembered is that my son was hitting really low off the face as well. That was also shaft related because the head would snap back too fast? At least, that’s what the Trackman technician was saying. He went to the heavier shaft and things mellowed out a lot, launch jived with his AoA, spin came down and his carries went up 20 yards.

So, in his case heavier with a mid kick worked out.

I voted, but no idea if it’s correct or not. Try all of them over the course of a couple weeks.

Agree with Dave that getting fit is the most important thing. That possibly means a lot of work testing different shafts. Especially, as your SS seems to be getting faster...

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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10 minutes ago, klineka said:

You nailed it with big empty bubble. I have come to not like that feeling, and much prefer the compact, dense, almost "solid" feeling head that the Rogue provides which is probably 40-50% of the reason I am looking to switch drivers.

That probably has to do more with the jailbreak tech they added. It stabilizes the face. Every since then, they produced that heavy feel.

Note, feel is primarily sound. I also found the SLDR had a very heavy feel to it because the CG was so low and forward. I think the more low and forward the heavier (thudy) feel the club gets.

Ping is typically a very high pitch tinny sound. Their CG is typically way back and lower than most golf clubs.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

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Yes, since Epic, jailbreak like you say, there is this heavy feel/ thuddy sound in the Callaways.

In the spectrum of lighter feel and bubble-like to more heavy and concentrated, I would say it goes this way   Taylormade->Ping->Titleist->Callaway.

After playing with the two extremes of Taylormade and Callaway, I have come to prefer the middle of Ping or Titleist, neither too bubbly or too heavy for my tastes.

Edited by GOATee
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(edited)
1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

Looks like you are hitting the ball low on the clubface. Your launch angle is nearly 2 degrees lower than your dynamic loft.

This is why you are getting near 3000 rpm in spin rate with a +4.3 angle of attack.

I would work on hitting the ball above center. You could probably see a drop off of nearly 750-1000 rpm in spin. You'd probably see a higher smash factor, and a lot more carry.

Not sure I would go out an buy a new club.

If you shift the strike up, you'd probably see closer to 16 degrees of launch with low 2000 rpm spin. That would gain you about 7 yards of carry.

Now I'm even more confused because looking at the Trackman drive optimizer chart it seems like almost all of the launch angles are right about 2 degrees lower than the dynamic loft regardless of what the AoA is. Looks like figuring out where I actually strike it on the face will be my first task and based on my AoA looks like a 9 degree head should help lower the launch angle to a more reasonable number.

Based on the feedback here about each model, as of right now I think I'm leaning towards starting with a regular Rogue 9 degree for the head, and probably a low launch/low spin shaft. The extreme spin reduction of the SubZero makes me feel like I might not be able to keep that one on this planet if the backspin drops too low since that would affect spin axis too.

image.png

Edited by klineka

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Max ST LS
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood/3Hybrid
Irons: :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   MD5 54 58 degree  
Putter: :odyssey:  White Hot RX #1
Ball: :srixon: Z Star XV

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10 minutes ago, klineka said:

Now I'm even more confused because looking at the Trackman drive optimizer chart it seems like almost all of the launch angles are right about 2 degrees lower than the dynamic loft regardless of what the AoA is. Looks like figuring out where I actually strike it on the face will be my first task and based on my AoA looks like a 9 degree head should help lower the launch angle to a more reasonable number.

Based on the feedback here about each model, as of right now I think I'm leaning towards starting with a regular Rogue 9 degree for the head, and probably a low launch/low spin shaft. The extreme spin reduction of the SubZero makes me feel like I might not be able to keep that one on this planet if the backspin drops too low since that would affect spin axis too.

image.png

That was the thinking by my vote. Then the mid kick might help with raising the strike point?

It’s all conjecture until you get fit though.

 

15 minutes ago, GOATee said:

Yes, since Epic, jailbreak like you say, there is this heavy feel/ thuddy sound in the Callaways.

In the spectrum of lighter feel and bubble-like to more heavy and concentrated, I would say it goes this way   Taylormade->Ping->Titleist->Callaway.

After playing with the two extremes of Taylormade and Callaway, I have come to prefer the middle of Ping or Titleist, neither too bubbly or too heavy for my tastes.

Disagree, Titleist sounds the most “thuddy” 😂

Edited by Lihu

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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9 minutes ago, klineka said:

Now I'm even more confused because looking at the Trackman drive optimizer chart it seems like almost all of the launch angles are right about 2 degrees lower than the dynamic loft regardless of what the AoA is. Looks like figuring out where I actually strike it on the face will be my first task and based on my AoA looks like a 9 degree head should help lower the launch angle to a more reasonable number.

I could be wrong then.

Ok, an older diagram from trackman has the vertical launch angle as always lower than the dynamic loft. I think it's because the loft of the club is always higher than the angle of attack, even if the AoA is positive. So, it lowers the launch angle a bit. I was wrong on my desertion.

So, the biggest issue then is getting your spin a bit lower. I would still check strike. A 3000 rpm rate is pretty high for hitting up on the ball with a +4 AoA.

The M2 CG location is middle of the road compared to the 2018 options.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

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Yes, the strike location can totally change the spin because of the gear effect.

I heard using shoe powder or is it spray? is a convenient way of showing strike location on the face.

Hehe Titleists can be thuddy all right.  Try the 915D2, that thing is loud.

Edited by GOATee
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