Counterbalanced Putter Conversion

[Gonzo819]

I have a 34" 388 gram ping ketsch cadence that I believe is too short for me and the toe hangs below the heel. I'm 6'6" and I want to either add 5 inches or replace the shaft and add a counterbalanced grip. If I just add length will that bring the lie angle up or willthe toe hang even more? 

[boogielicious]

  On 2/17/2019 at 9:23 PM, Gonzo819 said:

I have a 34" 388 gram ping ketsch cadence that I believe is too short for me and the toe hangs below the heel. I'm 6'6" and I want to either add 5 inches or replace the shaft and add a counterbalanced grip. If I just add length will that bring the lie angle up or willthe toe hang even more? 

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Five inches is a lot to add. Replacing the shaft will get you the length, but the swingweight will make it feel different. Have you tried out a longer, counter-weighted putter? It may be less expensive in the long run to just find one on eBay. 

[Adam C]

Yes, to answer your question the added length will change the lie angle more upright (aka toe up).

[colin007]

  On 2/18/2019 at 3:06 PM, Adam C said:

Yes, to answer your question the added length will change the lie angle more upright (aka toe up).

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Are you sure? How does adding length change the actual lie angle of the club head?

[iacas]

  On 2/18/2019 at 3:09 PM, colin007 said:

Are you sure? How does adding length change the actual lie angle of the club head?

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It doesn't.

@Adam C is assuming that the guy will position his body in the same exact position in 3D space, in which case, the putter would be longer and further out and more "toe up."

But the guy probably wants a longer putter so he can stand more upright, and not stand the same way, so it may not affect the "playing" lie angle at all. Heck, he may need a more upright lie angle if he changes his setup enough.

[Adam C]

Obviously the additional length does not somehow change the physical angle where the shaft enters the putter head. However, just like any club, as you ad length, you, the golfer, are moving farther away from the ball. This decreases the shaft angle from the ground. This is why your PW lie is greater than your 5 iron lie. As this angle decreases, the angle of the head increases. Think of it like a see saw where the base of the hosel is the fulcrum.

Now as far as our OP is concerned, at 6ft 6, I think it's a fair assumption that with a 34 inch putter he is standing too close to the ball and thus the toe hangs down. Even if he is not standing close however, there is an additional reason that could be affecting the toe hang based on the height. If he is reaching for the ball because of the putter length, then the angle between his arms and the putter shaft has increased. It could now be close to 180 degrees as he stretches for the ball. This reaching would also have the result of flattening the putter head. In either case, adding length and allowing him to move farther away from the ball will again flatten the shaft angle and increase the putter head angle.

Will this completely solve the issue? Will the toe still be down based on his particular setup and body proportions? Will he need the putter bent additionally more upright? I can't answer these over a forum post thread without some video. But, I can say that regarding the OP question, the putter will play more upright compared to how it is now.

[iacas]

  On 2/18/2019 at 4:03 PM, Adam C said:

However, just like any club, as you ad length, you, the golfer, are moving farther away from the ball.

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You're missing the point that a golfer can do that by standing more upright, not necessarily keeping his body in exactly the same configuration and pushing the clubhead further away.

  On 2/18/2019 at 4:03 PM, Adam C said:

However, just like any club, as you ad length, you, the golfer, are moving farther away from the ball. This decreases the shaft angle from the ground. This is why your PW lie is greater than your 5 iron lie. As this angle decreases, the angle of the head increases. Think of it like a see saw where the base of the hosel is the fulcrum.

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We understand the basic geometry here.

  On 2/18/2019 at 4:03 PM, Adam C said:

Now as far as our OP is concerned, at 6ft 6, I think it's a fair assumption that with a 34 inch putter he is standing too close to the ball and thus the toe hangs down.

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In my experience that's not a fair assumption. Tall golfers often bend over quite a bit to attempt to accommodate their putter. Plus, see the bold at the end.

  On 2/18/2019 at 4:03 PM, Adam C said:

Even if he is not standing close however, there is an additional reason that could be affecting the toe hang based on the height. If he is reaching for the ball because of the putter length, then the angle between his arms and the putter shaft has increased. It could now be close to 180 degrees as he stretches for the ball. This reaching would also have the result of flattening the putter head. In either case, adding length and allowing him to move farther away from the ball will again flatten the shaft angle and increase the putter head angle.

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I'm not sure what this has to do with much - good putters often have the shaft pretty much inline with their forearms.

  On 2/18/2019 at 4:03 PM, Adam C said:

Will this completely solve the issue? Will the toe still be down based on his particular setup and body proportions? Will he need the putter bent additionally more upright? I can't answer these over a forum post thread without some video. But, I can say that regarding the OP question, the putter will play more upright compared to how it is now.

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I think you're misreading that the "toe hangs below the heel" bit from the OP - I think he's saying the putter has toe hang, not that the lie angle is off at address.

Varying toe hang:

[Adam C]

  On 2/18/2019 at 4:20 PM, iacas said:

You're missing the point that a golfer can do that by standing more upright, not necessarily keeping his body in exactly the same configuration and pushing the clubhead further away.

We understand the basic geometry here.

In my experience that's not a fair assumption. Tall golfers often bend over quite a bit to attempt to accommodate their putter. Plus, see the bold at the end.

I'm not sure what this has to do with much - good putters often have the shaft pretty much inline with their forearms.

I think you're misreading that the "toe hangs below the heel" bit from the OP - I think he's saying the putter has toe hang, not that the lie angle is off at address.

Varying toe hang:

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As we are both now just making general statements in an attempt to address a specific case, it probably makes sense to end this unless we could see some video or images of OP's setup position.

[iacas]

  On 2/18/2019 at 4:38 PM, Adam C said:

As we are both now just making general statements in an attempt to address a specific case, it probably makes sense to end this unless we could see some video or images of OP's setup position.

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I wouldn't classify me pointing out that you quite likely misread the "toe hang" from the OP as a "general statement."

[Adam C]

  On 2/17/2019 at 9:23 PM, Gonzo819 said:

If I just add length will that bring the lie angle up or willthe toe hang even more?

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This is the last sentence from the original post. Lie angle up or toe hang (ie angle down). Otherwise the sentence does not make sense as they address two different questions. If he is asking about toe hang as it relates to lie angle then that is a whole different can of worms and I have no idea. Would need some engineers input.

[Gonzo819]

Sorry I'm a little new to this. If I hold the putter flat to the ground it feels like I'm too far away from the ball. If I hold it where I want to where I'm closer to the ball the toe is pointed down and often rubs the ground. I have another cheapo putter that is an inch longer and appears to have the same lie angle and it feels more comfortable. I'm assuming if I add an inch plus the three inches to achieve the counterbalanced grip that the lie angle would work. I know adding 4 inches is a lot but since it's a putter I figured it would handle the stress. 

[iacas]

  On 2/18/2019 at 5:37 PM, Gonzo819 said:

Sorry I'm a little new to this. If I hold the putter flat to the ground it feels like I'm too far away from the ball. If I hold it where I want to where I'm closer to the ball the toe is pointed down and often rubs the ground. I have another cheapo putter that is an inch longer and appears to have the same lie angle and it feels more comfortable. I'm assuming if I add an inch plus the three inches to achieve the counterbalanced grip that the lie angle would work. I know adding 4 inches is a lot but since it's a putter I figured it would handle the stress. 

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Thanks for the additional information.

That's not what "toe hang" is when talking about a putter. That's purely the lie angle.

Simply lengthening the shaft and keeping the putter flat will put you even further from the ball.

That said, I don't think it looks appreciably short. If I were helping you, I'd have you bend your elbows a bit more and that would put you a bit closer to the ball. Your arms are almost completely extended.

I don't think you need a longer putter shaft, but if you did put one in, you'd likely want to bend the shaft more upright.

[Adam C]

If you have another longer putter and it feels more comfortable than by all means add the inch. Does the longer putter also sit toe down? After you make all the changes on the butt end, you can always bend the head upright.

As far as the extra length ( 3 inches) for the grip, don't worry, just epoxy the extension in and you should be good. I would never do it on any other club, but with a putter and specifically with a counter balanced one where you aren't even gripping the back end of the grip usually, no problem.

[Gonzo819]

  On 2/18/2019 at 5:53 PM, Adam C said:

If you have another longer putter and it feels more comfortable than by all means add the inch. Does the longer putter also sit toe down? After you make all the changes on the butt end, you can always bend the head upright.

As far as the extra length ( 3 inches) for the grip, don't worry, just epoxy the extension in and you should be good. I would never do it on any other club, but with a putter and specifically with a counter balanced one where you aren't even gripping the back end of the grip usually, no problem.

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My cheapo putter seems to have the same lie angle and and is an inch longer than the ping and it sits pretty level for me. If I added 4 inches and choked down 3 inches that should give me the same angles as the cheapo while also giving me the counterweight I'm looking for. Would 4 inches be safe since I'd only be gripping an inch of it? I'm thinking about just adding the 3 inches for the counterbalanced  grip and leaving it at that. 

[Adam C]

I think either 3 or 4 inches will be fine for the extension. Again I wouldn't do it on a 4 iron but I have put 3 inches on a putter just straight in for a guy and never heard of any issue with it. And that was with a standard grip, not counterbalanced. Just do your epoxy correctly and I wouldn't sweat 4 inches if you want it.