Hip bump or hip turn? You be the judge..

[iacas]

I think you can get too technical on here,no disrespect to anyones swing knowledge.I look at this guy and say less talk more swing.That's the proof of the pudding.We can debate hip turn,hip slide until the cows come home.

Different golfers learn differently. I like talking about mechanics and still have the ability to "just swing" on the golf course. One doesn't exist to the exclusion of the other.

[Brakkus]

Well different golfers invest more faith in mechanics than others.I like golf mechanics,fundamentals can't be avoided,but beyond that I believe it's feel and mental application.

This doesn't mean I don't work on parts of my game or think about strategy seriously,but it's just a swing,and I would rather take the blame myself for swing interference.

Each to his own,which I'm sure you know bearing in my mind your much loftier handicap.

[bunkerputt]

OK, but you're assuming it's faulty. It's not faulty.

If by "it's not faulty" you really just mean to disagree with the idea that there is no purely lateral motion (where every point moves forward), that seems like a reasonable position to hold. I think most people are convinced that there is some purely lateral motion, and if I had to just pick one to believe, I might pick that one for the sheer odds of it. I haven't seen the data you have, so I don't have the benefit of adding that to my knowledge, though I would like to, which is why I asked where you got it from. I'm not inclined to just take anyone's word for it...no offense to you personally...just the way I go about thinking through a problem.

But on the other hand, if you are saying my claim that the argument "lateral shifting occurred, therefore sliding occurred" is faulty, I've clearly shown a case where lateral motion can occur by combining segments of rotational motion where the axis changes. It seems to me that you are committing the affirming the consequent fallacy. We both agree that there is lateral motion in the swing. I don't think it's a sensible position to think there is not. The question is what is the nature of that lateral motion. I'm still quite interested in looking at some data. In fact, I appreciate the previous posters comments about motion golf. That seems like a no-nonsense way to obtain something empirical about the hip pivot. I certainly don't want to lead anyone astray here and the only thing I'm trying to accomplish is a better understanding of how exactly the golf swing works.

[iacas]

If by "it's not faulty" you really just mean to disagree with the idea that there is no purely lateral motion (where every point moves forward), that seems like a reasonable position to hold.

There's a proven slide of the hips forward, independent of the nearly simultaneous rotational motion, at the start of the downswing.

I disagreed with this:

I'm only attempting to come up with something to show that the argument "lateral shift occurred, therefore conscious or unconscious sliding occurred" is faulty.

I disagree that good golfers can "laterally shift" without "sliding." I disagree that good golfers achieve a lateral shift through rotation about a varying axis only, as you posited. I also know that "sliding" to achieve lateral shift is something every good player does.

You believe that the "lateral shift" we see is purely a result of rotation. It is not. Also, I mis-spoke. It's also not really a matter of "disagreeing" or "agreeing." It's fact, as far as I'm concerned, and thus I should have said flatly that you're wrong, not that I "disagree."

But on the other hand, if you are saying my claim that the argument "lateral shifting occurred, therefore sliding occurred" is faulty, I've clearly shown a case where lateral motion can occur by combining segments of rotational motion where the axis changes.

Your "case" is not one that occurs in the real world, and was quickly refuted.

Again, just because you CAN show something as occurring doesn't mean that's how it occurs. As I said before, I "can" show someone hitting a golf ball with the back of a golf club from a normal setup, grip, etc. That doesn't mean that's how you should do it or how the world's best golfers hit a golf ball. Your animated GIF has several obvious flaws, many of which I've already covered. And since this discussion is the same as the other, I'm going to merge the two threads.

It seems to me that you are committing the

The only fallacy I seem to be committing is believing that I can get through to you how horribly off base you are.

I'm not committing a fallacy. There's lateral motion and it's NOT a result of rotation. Just because you can model it - in a model where the pivot points shift all over the place in a span of about half a second - doesn't mean that's how it works in reality.

I'm still quite interested in looking at some data.

Then go look for it.

It's not like I have the intellectual property of the golf companies or instructors sitting on my computer here to show you. And what IP I do have, I certainly can't share or I would have.

[iacas]

Re-reading the original post, it's clear to me that what you feel your body is doing is most likely not what's actually occurring. So far as I can tell you haven't submitted a video and we don't really know what you mean by "camera work."

Basically, it sounds as if your "hip bump" wasn't limited to your hips like it should be, and now it's led you down some bizarre path in which you think that the "hip bump" is purely rotational about a quickly moving, magical axis.

If you were falling forward, contriving your finish, and all sorts of other things, you weren't swinging properly. Tiger Woods moves his hips forward and doesn't fall forward or contrive his finish. Ben Hogan too.

And Ben Hogan, whom you thanked, kind of originated the "bump and turn" mentality.

[bunkerputt]

Also, I mis-spoke. It's also not really a matter of "disagreeing" or "agreeing." It's fact, as far as I'm concerned, and thus I should have said flatly that you're wrong, not that I "disagree."

I can handle this. The reality is I've only been playing 3 years or so. I'd find it odd indeed if I weren't wrong a lot of the time. I do find it humorous that admitting a mis-statement on your part occurred on the occasion of finding a stronger way to disagree

Your "case" is not one that occurs in the real world, and was quickly refuted.

Maybe that's true. I'm still forming an interpretation of the results....

The only fallacy I seem to be committing is believing that I can get through to you how horribly off base you are.

I'm not sure exactly how my word choice conveyed my attitude about this whole issue, but I'm really pretty flexible about it. Maybe my ball striking improvement was completely unrelated to my pivot changes. I really don't know. Golf is pretty complicated, as we all know... I think mostly I was excited to break the problem down in such a way as to reveal my own assumptions about the pivot.

The reality is 100 years from now not a single person on this forum will be caring about golf, much less whether there was independent lateral motion in the hip pivot. So whether I'm off base or not is really a small thing and not as horrible as you make it sound

I'm not committing a fallacy. There's lateral motion and it's NOT a result of rotation. Just because you can model it - in a model where the pivot points shift all over the place in a span of about half a second - doesn't mean that's how it works in reality.

Again, I'm not saying whether lateral motion not the product of rotation exists or doesn't exist in reality in the golf swing of real people. I'm saying that the argument that lateral movement occurred, therefore it must have been the product of lateral shift, is fallacious. And I also pointed out the specific fallacy for reference.

Perhaps when I first spoke I claimed that my little GIF reflected reality. I'd have to go back and check my comments. If so, I'd think it was a pretty weak argument on my part to show via GIF that such lateral movement is possible, therefore it must be probable.

[iacas]

I can handle this. The reality is I've only been playing 3 years or so. I'd find it odd indeed if I weren't wrong a lot of the time. I do find it humorous that admitting a mis-statement on your part occurred on the occasion of finding a stronger way to disagree

I'd quote the whole "do I amuse you? Am I here to amuse you? Am I a clown to you?" speech from Casino, but, eh, it's late and I still have the Presidents Cup to watch. :)

Look, I'm not saying anything bad about you personally, and you seem to be handling it well so I am glad for that. I just don't want you going down a bizarre bad path and screwing yourself up. The best thing you can do now is to get to an instructor you can trust and work with him. Forget about a lot of this stuff and work on the feelings and things you need to do to make your swing work for you. If there's one thing I learned working on my swing by myself, it's that what you feel and what's reality are two very different things almost all the time, so work with an instructor and learn to look at video to spot the things you need to work on.

[JetFan1983]

I'd quote the whole "do I amuse you? Am I here to amuse you? Am I a clown to you?" speech from Casino, but, eh, it's late and I still have the Presidents Cup to watch. :)

Hehe, you mean Goodfellas. Yes! I finally corrected Iacas on something

[squaddie]

bunkerputt, I think it's useful to aid in your analysis of the hip action to download that MotionGolf model and video that's available for free on their website that safetrip mentioned.

Using the free MotionReality program I compared the 3D model's hip movement (frame by frame) with your animated gif hip movement and noticed the following:

* As the downswing was initiated in the 3D model there was a clear lateral movement back to the left side. The hips stayed in their orientation and shifted left a few inches.

* After the lateral move in the 3D model the pivot point appeared to be established on top of the left hip in it's new position. As the new pivot point was estabilished the right hip then pivoted around the left side.

The big difference I see between your animation and the 3D MotionGolf model is that the model appears to have only two pivot points to your three pivot points. Remove the 2nd pivot point and replace it with a lateral shift and your animated model may fit better with what should happen in reality with an ideal swing.

One aspect that complicates a 2-D model of the golf swing is adequately capturing the weight-transfer. Without the weight-transfer accounted for from right-to-left (in the right-handed swing) then the lateral motion and establishment of the 2nd pivot point cannot be demonstrated properly.

The MotionGolf model viewer has a Center of Balance overlay that shows how the center of gravity moves in the golf swing. Turn that overlay on as you observe the swing from below and you'll get a better idea how the lateral move is tied to the weight-shift to the left side in the backswing.

[mm6840]

Hi,

Like Eric said .. our feels always cheating on us. Here is my "strugle" with CoG shift (hip slide) and rotating hips left !


On that video swing rotation is where I want it to be..however it's too small CoG shift(secondary axis tilt is too small.) first before rotate hips left&up; (45 degrees). Results are solid .. but not enough compression of the ball.




Cheers,
M

[Zeph]

Tried to see if I could make something out of this on the range yesterday. My normal swing is probably something like bunkerputt is illustrating, not too much lateral movement going on. When I started pushing my left knee and hips out, the rest kinda fell into place. It feels like the swing is divided. First the hips push out, then they start rotating and pull the torso along for the ride. Best part is that the shots went straight. It makes sense too. If I don't get the hips going, the shoulders have nothing to guide them and pull them towards the target. So I end up turning them and can create a number of different shots. I can hold them off and push it to the right, or I can pull them through and over the top. Without the hips to guide them, it's luck if I hit it straight.

I'm definately a believer of the lateral shift, and it is a concious move, at least until the muscles have learned that they are supposed to do it from the top of the backswing. Then it becomes an unconcious move they have learned.

The body doesn't pivot around the back part of the body in the downswing. The lower body thrust forward, then start turning around the left leg when the weight has established upon it.

[PingGolfer95]

My swing teacher says that you start the downswing with a little bump, then turn. That means you just weight shift. If you SLIDE your hips you will have a problem.

[Zeph]

A lot could be written on this here, but when we have another thread on the subject I might aswell just refer to it. http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29616

I prefer the term slide over bump because it's a continous motion. You don't push the hips forward, then stop and rotate. The hips clearly slide forward from the top of the backswing through to the finish. When the club are halfway down to the ball, the hips start tilting upwards more than they move forwards, but it's all part of the same motion. The hips guide the rest of the body, so why should they just bump and let the rest be a lottery when they can make sure the torso is on track all the way through to the finish? The swing is not a purely rotational move. If it was, we'd all be pulling shots left. The lower body thrust forward to help us keep the upper body on track and give it momentum.

At address, the shoulders are level, at the top of the backswing the left shoulder is below the right. At impact the left shoulder is higher than the right, because the swing is both turning and moving at a vertical arc. To achieve that arc, the left side must be moved higher than the right. That's where the hips come in. They first slide to get the weight shifter and upper body started on the right track. Then they start pulling up while the club continues to move down towards the ball. If you were to just bump them, then turn, the club would be pulled to the inside. You need that continous movement of the hips to make sure the upper body and club stays on track.

If throw a ball, do the lower body bump and just stop? No. It continues to pull the upper body all the way until you've released the ball, then the rest happens because of the speed you've gathered.

Calling it a bump can cause some to think of the hips first bumping, then turning, which is false. Sliding makes it easier to comprehend and get the head to understand the motion. When working on it, I got the feeling of separation of the upper and lower body. The lower body was pulling and guiding the upper all the way through the ball.

[iacas]

On that video swing rotation is where I want it to be..however it's too small CoG shift(secondary axis tilt is too small.) first before rotate hips left&up; (45 degrees). Results are solid .. but not enough compression of the ball.

I would agree. Your swing looks a lot like the average golfer - very little hip sliding, good rotation. But you know what to improve, so you're well ahead of the average golfer too.

The body doesn't pivot around the back part of the body in the downswing. The lower body thrust forward, then start turning around the left leg when the weight has established upon it.

That's a good way to put it, I think.

My swing teacher says that you start the downswing with a little bump, then turn. That means you just weight shift. If you SLIDE your hips you will have a problem.

You should find a new teacher.

Do yourself a favor - go here: http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29616 . Read. Eight inches or so isn't what I would consider a "bump," and the leading edge of the hips keeps moving forward throughout the entire downswing. To be picky, the hips on the downswing first "bump" forward, then rotate WHILE continuing to push forward. The hips never rotates about a fixed point in the downswing - it's moving forward (target, not ball), up slightly, and to the left slightly throughout the downswing. But again, go visit the URL. I see Zeph linked to it as well.

I prefer the term slide over bump because it's a continous motion. You don't push the hips forward, then stop and rotate.

Exactly. "Bump" implies that the pushing forward stops after an inch or so. "Slide" might not be the best word - my instructor likes to say "push" - but I'm using those two interchangeably. If I could do it over again, I'd probably use "push" though in the title of that thread and my descriptions.

When the club are halfway down to the ball, the hips start tilting upwards more than they move forwards, but it's all part of the same motion.

Right... they're still moving forward though. And rotating. And moving up slightly as the left knee firms up and the left side of the body braces. But yes, Zeph, up is good there.

If you were to just bump them, then turn, the club would be pulled to the inside. You need that continous movement of the hips to make sure the upper body and club stays on track.

Well a lot of people who don't push their hips forward enough actually come over the top of the ball, delivering the club from the outside. They spin their hips out too early and their shoulders follow, spinning out.

Part of the advantage of the hip slide is that it keeps the right hip back a little longer, which also keeps the right shoulder back even longer ("back" in this case means away from the ball, not away from the target). Your right shoulder shouldn't be outside of your left until roughly the instant the ball leaves the clubface.

Calling it a bump can cause some to think of the hips first bumping, then turning, which is false. Sliding makes it easier to comprehend and get the head to understand the motion.

Agreed, but again, try "pushing" too. See whether that or "sliding" works better.

"Bump" is a poor term. At best, the downswing can be described as "Bump, then push/rotate," but even then it implies some sort of stopping/starting... Much easier to say, from the top, to push the hips forward. Or "slide" if you like. The rotation is easier to grasp - I don't think I've ever seen anyone fail to rotate their hips enough. Usually it's too much.

When working on it, I got the feeling of separation of the upper and lower body. The lower body was pulling and guiding the upper all the way through the ball.

That's a good feeling! Described well.

[mm6840]

Hi,

Like I said before somewhere pushing forward and/or pushing left forward depending on CF or CP release

School example o full push forward and left (Left knee down and then knee&hip; full left rotation).



Cheers,
M

for CF release is more like Eric described (more forward and somehowe less left)

[Zeph]

What's CF and CP?

[iacas]

What's CF and CP?

Clubface and club path I think.

I think the language barrier isn't helping with discussion. I don't really care to think of a CF or CP release, but rather simply a solid golf swing.

[mm6840]

Clubface and club path I think.

Yes you're right

It's hard to express in other language. However I'm using TGM terms CF and CP are often used to refer to the release type. CF has the clubhead working away from the center of the circle. This is pulling the club through impact. CP has the clubhead working with and around the center. This is pushing the club through impact. The CF (pulling) release can be a down-the-line release or a low and left release. The CP (pushing) release is a low and left release. The Golf Machine (TGM) book addresses golfers as hitters or swingers. A hitter (slinger) of the golf club has to consciously make the clubface square up at impact. A hitter uses a CF type release. A swinger of the golf club squares the clubface naturally/passively. A swinger uses a CP type release. Ben Hogan is an example of a golfer that uses a CP type release. Moe Norman is an example of a golfer that uses a CF type release. Cheers, M