• Announcements

    • iacas

      Create a Signature!   02/05/2016

      Everyone, go here and edit your signature this week: http://thesandtrap.com/settings/signature/.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Blitz28179

Tips to help me get hips more involved in downswing

14 posts in this topic

I think my downswing is an all upper body move that causes me to cut across the ball(outside / in).I either pull the golf ball off the teebox or sometimes hit a towering high ball that goes about 210 yards.Once every 30-40 swings I will hit one that goes 280-290 yards.I want to do that all the time lol.On the bottom of my driver It clearly shows that I cut across the ball with the markings.Anybody have this problem and fix it?What would you guys suggest I do to fix this?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Want to get rid of this advertisement? Sign up (or log in) today! It's free!

Your problem will go away once you start believing that power/distance/clubhead speed doesn't come from the strength of your arms. A good first step would be to find a clear explanation of the 'biokinetic chain' and understand how it works. Then read a little about minimising resistance in the downswing by keeping arms and club close to the body. And finally, understand how a double pendulum works - you'll then see why a passive wrist release maximises clubhead speed.

Sounds complicated, but the reading is interesting... Once you realise where swing power really comes from, you'll be less inclined to overpower your swing with your arms.

It's mostly a matter of belief in the mechanics and using it to curb your natural instincts....

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've struggled with the issue of an arms-dominant swing up until very recently, but finally came to understand the real importance of keeping the arms and body more connected, at which point my swing became more of a swing than a "hit" - much less effort to get some really decent club-head speed.

I didn't work on my hip action even though, like you, it felt wrong (as did my leg action, impact position and follow-through), but rather I worked on the connection. For me, staying properly connected promotes the correct sequence of body actions - hips, legs etc all seem to naturally work how you think they should in a proper golf swing. Also, it eliminated my chicken-wing at impact.

The main "fix" for me on this aspect was paying particular attention to the following, specially the last item. I appreciate this may not apply to you, but I found it so significant that I thought I'd lay it out and it might prove useful to you. So, aside from the normal main keys I focus on :

  • staying "connected", esp. at the start of the backswing (i.e. arms close to torso), plus ensure a correct plane (not too flat)
  • calm the back-swing down (I somehow subconsciously swung too fast to compensate for the lack of power in the down-swing)
  • make a full shoulder turn, but don't overswing or collapse the left arm
  • a little pause at the top comes naturally if you maintain the connection and start the downswing which now won't start with the arms, but ...
  • ... keep the right elbow in toward your right hip (and don't get too flat here either)

There are plenty of people on here far more capable of describing this idea and if you feel it's missing in your swing then keep plugging away with questions until you get it because, at least to me, this one aspect of the swing has been hugely significant.

Joehuggy (a single-figure handicapper) recently posted on this too : http://thesandtrap.com/t/63148/from-250yard-carry-to-a-275-yard-carry-with-one-change EDIT : just saw that you posted there so obviously read it already

BTW, in my 4th bullet point I avoided saying what does actually start my down-swing because I'm not entirely sure if it's hips, torso, legs, some combination of those or something else, but i know it's no longer my arms.

TF

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Check this thread out http://thesandtrap.com/t/54115/weight-forward-and-secondary-axis-tilt Can't be sure without seeing your swing, but it sounds like you are shifting your upper body forwards on the downswing. The proper feeling you want at impact is the weight on the lead foot but the head back. Try the hips forward drill, there's a video of Dave Wedzik doing it somewhere, I don't have the time to link it atm, sorry. Do you film your swing? Its much more helpful to see what's happening on video.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Blitz28179

I think my downswing is an all upper body move that causes me to cut across the ball(outside / in).I either pull the golf ball off the teebox or sometimes hit a towering high ball that goes about 210 yards.Once every 30-40 swings I will hit one that goes 280-290 yards.I want to do that all the time lol.On the bottom of my driver It clearly shows that I cut across the ball with the markings.Anybody have this problem and fix it?What would you guys suggest I do to fix this?

Originally Posted by ChrisGSZ

Your problem will go away once you start believing that power/distance/clubhead speed doesn't come from the strength of your arms. A good first step would be to find a clear explanation of the 'biokinetic chain' and understand how it works. Then read a little about minimising resistance in the downswing by keeping arms and club close to the body. And finally, understand how a double pendulum works - you'll then see why a passive wrist release maximises clubhead speed.

Sounds complicated, but the reading is interesting... Once you realise where swing power really comes from, you'll be less inclined to overpower your swing with your arms.

It's mostly a matter of belief in the mechanics and using it to curb your natural instincts....

Originally Posted by TidyFreak

I've struggled with the issue of an arms-dominant swing up until very recently, but finally came to understand the real importance of keeping the arms and body more connected, at which point my swing became more of a swing than a "hit" - much less effort to get some really decent club-head speed.

I didn't work on my hip action even though, like you, it felt wrong (as did my leg action, impact position and follow-through), but rather I worked on the connection. For me, staying properly connected promotes the correct sequence of body actions - hips, legs etc all seem to naturally work how you think they should in a proper golf swing. Also, it eliminated my chicken-wing at impact.

The main "fix" for me on this aspect was paying particular attention to the following, specially the last item. I appreciate this may not apply to you, but I found it so significant that I thought I'd lay it out and it might prove useful to you. So, aside from the normal main keys I focus on :

staying "connected", esp. at the start of the backswing (i.e. arms close to torso), plus ensure a correct plane (not too flat)

calm the back-swing down (I somehow subconsciously swung too fast to compensate for the lack of power in the down-swing)

make a full shoulder turn, but don't overswing or collapse the left arm

a little pause at the top comes naturally if you maintain the connection and start the downswing which now won't start with the arms, but ...

... keep the right elbow in toward your right hip (and don't get too flat here either)

There are plenty of people on here far more capable of describing this idea and if you feel it's missing in your swing then keep plugging away with questions until you get it because, at least to me, this one aspect of the swing has been hugely significant.

Joehuggy (a single-figure handicapper) recently posted on this too : http://thesandtrap.com/t/63148/from-250yard-carry-to-a-275-yard-carry-with-one-change  EDIT : just saw that you posted there so obviously read it already

BTW, in my 4th bullet point I avoided saying what does actually start my down-swing because I'm not entirely sure if it's hips, torso, legs, some combination of those or something else, but i know it's no longer my arms.

TF

Blitz28179,

There are plenty of people who will advise you on the correct swing mechanics, but I'd like to touch on something that you seldom read about, but is so important for you to move forward.

You are now at the crossroads, you either learn how to do it and go on to be the golfer you could be, or don't believe/ don't learn how to do and forever be resigned to the rank of hacker (sorry to be so blunt).

For me, it was ego that stopped me for so long. I knew what I should be doing, I knew the feel, I knew the positions/mechanics, but could I do it? - NO!

I couldn't do it because my ego/self image wouldn't let me. It didn't want me to look bad infront of people (and myself) by hitting shots that would be much worse than my norm.

You have to give up caring where the ball goes and what its flight is (that comes after the basic swing change is in). It takes a hell of a lot of guts to purposefully hit balls that you know make you look so bad. Thats were so many people give up and end up never progressing.

So whenever you practice you have to leave your ego at the door (I mean it), remember you're there to improve not just bash balls. Stop caring about the ballflight, 1-2 practice swings with the feel/mechanics you are working on, then try to put the same feels on a swing through the ball and dont care where the ball goes. A good swing is one that has some of the feelings you are trying to learn, a bad swing is one were you give up (subconciously) and your old feelings/mechanics take over.

Good luck.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The hip shift should be the first thought during forward swing. If you having been doing it, it might be unnatural at first and need practice.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To get the hips more forward or involved you need to use the ground pressure more efficiently.  Meaning on the downswing feel like you're crushing a bug under your left toe, pressure into the ground.  What does this do?  It will get the left knee to flex and help the left knee get just outside the ankle.  That pressure also gives you something to extend off of which keeps the hips turning.  Get in a golf posture right now and rehearse a downswing with a flexed left knee.  Notice where the hips and shoulders are pointing, they should be out to the right.  Then into the followthrough you'd just extend the legs.  Start over, take it to the top of the back swing but straighten the left knee right away on the downswing, hips are now aimed left.

Something else that might help is to make sure the left foot is  turned out 30-35 degrees, give the left freedom to flex forward.

Watch my left knee

Good illustration, some technical language, don't worry about that, watch the demonstration and the left knee.  Look at all the ground pressure towards the toes of his left foot.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Threads like these make me happy with how far I have come with my swing. Stick to it you'll get it. Bug crushing is an interesting drill and fairly accurate assessment.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've had the problem of getting my hips involved in the downswing too.

After trying to control the downswing hips involvement I found the solution was easier addressed on the back swing process.

I make sure to COMPLETE my hip turn on the back swing. This creates enough tension such that the down swing is NATURALLY activates the hips and increasing my driving distance.

WARNING: do not over turn the hips and shoulders at the top. Loss of the correct spine and head tilt will result it VERY pitiful shots.

BTW I subscribe to the STACK and TILT swing method id this helps.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by ChrisGSZ

Your problem will go away once you start believing that power/distance/clubhead speed doesn't come from the strength of your arms. A good first step would be to find a clear explanation of the 'biokinetic chain' and understand how it works. Then read a little about minimising resistance in the downswing by keeping arms and club close to the body. And finally, understand how a double pendulum works - you'll then see why a passive wrist release maximises clubhead speed.

Sounds complicated, but the reading is interesting... Once you realise where swing power really comes from, you'll be less inclined to overpower your swing with your arms.

It's mostly a matter of belief in the mechanics and using it to curb your natural instincts....

Hi Chris

Can you recommend any books/reading material of this sort which deals with everything you have mentioned here, i am very interested in what you have mentioned here

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Appreciate the helpful info.I played a round today and had 5 birdie chances( I only made 1 of 5).I also blew up on 3 holes with 2 triples and a snowman.I am learning this weight shift to the front side.When I do it properly with the driver its really goes along ways, straight and with a penetrating ball flight..Problem is this still feels unatural to me so I catch myself feeling uncomfortable at the top of my backswing and on the downswing I wont get my weight to my left side properly.Thats when I have bad shots.I do see some progress.My bad shots arent as bad as they was a week ago.

Mvmac, That actually makes sense with the knee flex.I can tell you that I am pretty sure I dont have any knee flex in my golf swing.Doing the practice swings you described it did feel good to me.Thanks for the videos.Will try this next time I am on the golf course.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spudmonkey, I played in a scramble at my local course 2 weeks ago and hit one of the ugliest tee shots in front of 20 other golfers.I popped it straight up and it went about 40 yards.It actually landed at the ladies tee box lol.I felt like an idiot.Those instances does make you fall back to your old habits..I know for a fact I would have made alot better contact with my old hacker swing.Instead of letting it get me down I stayed with this new swing and now I am seeing alot better improvement.

Quote:

Blitz28179,

There are plenty of people who will advise you on the correct swing mechanics, but I'd like to touch on something that you seldom read about, but is so important for you to move forward.

You are now at the crossroads, you either learn how to do it and go on to be the golfer you could be, or don't believe/ don't learn how to do and forever be resigned to the rank of hacker (sorry to be so blunt).

For me, it was ego that stopped me for so long. I knew what I should be doing, I knew the feel, I knew the positions/mechanics, but could I do it? - NO!

I couldn't do it because my ego/self image wouldn't let me. It didn't want me to look bad infront of people (and myself) by hitting shots that would be much worse than my norm.

You have to give up caring where the ball goes and what its flight is (that comes after the basic swing change is in). It takes a hell of a lot of guts to purposefully hit balls that you know make you look so bad. Thats were so many people give up and end up never progressing.

So whenever you practice you have to leave your ego at the door (I mean it), remember you're there to improve not just bash balls. Stop caring about the ballflight, 1-2 practice swings with the feel/mechanics you are working on, then try to put the same feels on a swing through the ball and dont care where the ball goes. A good swing is one that has some of the feelings you are trying to learn, a bad swing is one were you give up (subconciously) and your old feelings/mechanics take over.

Good luck.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by Blitz28179

Spudmonkey, I played in a scramble at my local course 2 weeks ago and hit one of the ugliest tee shots in front of 20 other golfers.I popped it straight up and it went about 40 yards.It actually landed at the ladies tee box lol.I felt like an idiot.Those instances does make you fall back to your old habits..I know for a fact I would have made alot better contact with my old hacker swing.Instead of letting it get me down I stayed with this new swing and now I am seeing alot better improvement.

Quote:

I would say also besides tucking your right elbow from the top, ensure your arms are positioned tightly into the chest and keep this feeling for the left arm the whole time. This helps make the arms and body one unit. Then use that double pendulum/wrist to really whip at the bottom.

But try a few ideas, your bound to browse over things and miss what they actually mean because these are words and we are looking for an experience, trial and error and patience, you can do it if you really put your mind to it.

Good Luck

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2016 TST Partners

    GAME Golf
    PING Golf
    Lowest Score Wins
  • Posts

    • Ball likely in casual water but uncertain
      Interesting. It seems to me that if the ball is in a tree, even when camera follows it, they do not alllw a drop without shaking the ball loose or pulling a Faldo. This happened to Rose this season, they could see a ball with binoculars. They heard it go in the tree but not come out. Had to re tee.
    • Irons, Irons, Irons!
      That's what I'm realizing.  I was at Dick's yesterday and now that all the new models are coming in the old one's are being discounted dramatically.  But I think I'm going to stick with the ping eye 2 irons since everyone seems to be at a consensus that they are fine to be starting out with.  However, I may be in the market for a driver because some of these drivers are so inexpensive right now. I'm considering the callaway xr or x2 because it's like 129 bucks or something.  Right now I play a nike ignite 450cc. I paid 20 bucks for it and it's been great the only thing is, I'm hearing some noise down by the hosel which i suspect isn't the best thing but the face isn't cracked or anything.  It sounds like there is sand in it.  Anyways, I appreciate all the feed back I'm new to site but really like the community of golfers and the fact I can get on here and really express any concerns or ask questions. 
    • My Swing (coop6)
      It pretty much is, I'm not going to debate 5 degrees with you. As I've said repeatedly, Tiger's swing and a standard swing do not require rotation. On this shot he rotated 5 degrees, not much. If you want to play with rotation to closed enjoy. I prefer to keep the club square. 
    • Struggles of turning pro
      http://thesandtrap.com/blogs/ Normally you must be an Established Member to create a blog, but I've enabled this for you now.
    • No Forearm Rotation - Biggest Swing Flaw?
      Completely bogus. The arms (forearms) rotate in every good golf swing. Here's an old thread that's appropriate for this discussion.   Also, I don't think I've ever really seen a golfer, throughout his backswing, rotate his forearms the opposite way. For short periods of time, maybe a few golfers "counter-rotate," but all end up rotating some. No, there won't be "arguments" over this, or there shouldn't be, because… like many things, this is pretty much a fact. There really doesn't need to be an argument or a discussion. It's a knowable, understandable thing. Hunter, like every other PGA Tour pro, rotates his forearms during the backswing. You're rotating your arms as you do this. It's subtle, but if you just pick the club up straight without rotating, you'll have the shaft resting against the top of your head. Look at where the back of your left hand points. Toward the target at setup, and then rotated to put the club on your right shoulder. Turn to the top when the club is on your face or the top of your head and the club will be leaning out over the target line (it'll be roughly parallel to your bend toward the ball, since it's basically just staying inline with your spine). Bending your right arm rotates your forearms. It pulls everything to the right (you can't bend your right arm straight in front of you without also bending your left arm). Then even more rotation is added after that. I agree that you don't want to be doing a lot of "things" on the downswing, but that's not how physics works. You can do all sorts of things on the backswing and not do them on the downswing. We have students who swing steep to steep, steep to shallow, shallow to steep, shallow to shallow, and all sorts of things. We have students who address the ball with a closed clubface, roll it way open, and then return it wide open, etc. The "equal and opposite" does not mean a delayed reaction - it means that if I push on something it will, right at that very moment, push back. If I fire rocket propulsion downward, the missile or space shuttle or whatever will move upward. You don't fire rockets and then, a week later, a different missile takes off as a "reaction." Furthermore, PGA Tour players have a variety of backswings. Ray Floyd was underneath, Rickie Fowler or Ryan Moore are steep or over the top on the backswing. The golfer who comes closest to the "square" or "no rotation" backswing is a guy who CAN'T really rotate his forearms: Tim Clark. And even Tim rotates some. But notice how far "out over his head" the clubhead is, despite the fact that he's well short of parallel on the backswing. It's so much more than that. I ask people in my lessons how much skill or raw natural talent it takes to set up properly. The correct answer: none. They just have to know how to do it. If golf was as simple as "set up properly and then turn" we'd all be a whole lot better than we are. Golfers can be set up the same and make very, very different backswings, and both can be successful. So Bubba is doing it wrong? And what does that have to do with the swing flaw of "rotating your forearms"? (Is overswinging a big problem? Absolutely. More, IMO, for what it tends to do to the trail elbow and the subsequent inability of the player to get the arms and hands down fast enough. I'll never really argue against overswinging, except when it's made as a blanket statement covering all golfers who go past parallel or something.) Also, you said (though it feels off topic since this is mostly about forearm rotation, n'est-ce pas?) "the more you have to wait for them to come down." That's not really true - you can MAKE them come down faster. Your arms aren't just limp things hanging from your shoulders that get dragged behind your hips and torso rotating. Because, biomechanically, making a swing with no forearm rotation would be ridiculous and resemble the golf swings of precisely no good players, ever. Tim Clark comes closest, and people don't even copy his swing, and if Tim Clark's forearms would rotate as most people's do, even Tim Clark would have a different golf swing. Modeling your golf swing on someone with a disability hardly seems like the prudent choice. My last piece of evidence, right here: This should drive the point home pretty significantly. Spoiler One last thing here. Consider the sagittal plane (in the spoiler above, just so it's not taking up a ton of space) and the back of the left hand (assuming a right-handed golfer). At address, they're parallel - the back of the left hand is parallel to the sagittal plane. Yet at the top of the backswing, what do we see? The sagittal plane (at the point of attachment of the arms, i.e. near the shoulders) is about 90° from where it started. It's inclined at about 35° or so, but otherwise just is still just a plane bisecting the sternum, neck, face, etc. What plane is the back of the left wrist on? Why, it's one that's about 90° to the sagittal plane. I've illustrated this here: In this illustration, I've drawn a little "cube" in the screen on the left. The green face of the cube is parallel to the sagittal plane (the edge of the plane is pointing "at the camera"). The blue side - perpendicular to the green side - is parallel to the back of the left hand. It too is pointing at the camera, but has rotated about 90°. That's why it's parallel to a perpendicular side of the cube. On the right, above, to make the back of Mike's left hand parallel the green face of the cube, he'd have to rotate his arms BACK about 90° to the red line. Now, then, @Golfer2223, you'd set a record as the first human being in history to present an argument as you have done and immediately recognize, given my response and a little thought on your part, that you want to take back your entire argument and completely change your position. In other words, I don't expect that to happen. A small part of me hopes it will some day, but I don't think today is going to be that day. But, realistically, that's what should happen. As I see it, you have no real ground to stand on here. Not biomechanically, not based on simple geometry, nothing. The arms rotate during the backswing in EVERY good player. Even in Tim Clark's backswing (or he'd truly have the club hanging out over his head. I will also say this, @Golfer2223: I appreciate your willingness to help, and to jump in, and to offer your thoughts on things. I hope you can take this rebuttal in the spirit in which it's intended - to help and to discuss. I don't know who you are (you should add more info to your profile), and I'm not responding just to be mean, but to help people learn, think critically, and better understand the golf swing. We encourage debate and discussion here, and that's all my response is to be taken as - more debate and discussion. Do I think I'm right? Yes. And I think I've backed up why. P.S. As someone noted above, often students need to feel like there's no rotation in the backswing. But that doesn't make it accurate.
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Images

  • Today's Birthdays

  • Blog Entries