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Stan Utley chipping and pitching techniques??


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After reading his book and trying his methods in the back yard, I have mixed feelings about whether I want to try and use this technique. Are any of you using his techniques and if so, are you having good results? I have tried them in the back yard and I seem to hit them solid and have the nice "click" when I hit them. I know I haven't given it enough time yet, but the weather sucks right now. I just wanted to hear some input from any of you that decided to use it.

Bryan A
"Your desire to change must be greater than your desire to stay the same"

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After reading his book and trying his methods in the back yard, I have mixed feelings about whether I want to try and use this technique. Are any of you using his techniques and if so, are you having good results? I have tried them in the back yard and I seem to hit them solid and have the nice "click" when I hit them. I know I haven't given it enough time yet, but the weather sucks right now. I just wanted to hear some input from any of you that decided to use it.

I have had much success with his methods. I suggest checking out the thread devoted to his "The Art of the Short Game" book for more from me and others.

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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I have had much success with his methods. I suggest checking out the thread devoted to his "The Art of the Short Game" book for more from me and others.

I saw that thread but I didn't know if I should post this within it or not. So far, it feels like I can make pretty solid contact with less room for error. I am going to try it out. I was just curious how many were doing it. So are you judging your distances by the pivot or by how far you take the club back?

Bryan A
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Ive used his pitching and chipping methods for years. Very easy motions to repeat. The sand game and putting is something i figured out on my own, though.
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Is stan utley the guy who uses the whole body and legs and all of it in chipping and pitching? Because that's what I do and it works fantastically for me.

He's also the guy that wants you to use the bounce of the wedge and smack it down right?
If so, I only use that if the course conditions are hard enough.

From what I hear about his methods, it seems to match my game a lot and it works well for me.
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Just watched a little video of his on YouTube about chipping. Interesting. He advocates a small pivot with the legs and hips. I don't do this and I certainly am very incosistent with my chipping and very short pitches. I have nothing to lose but to try it out.

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So are you judging your distances by the pivot or by how far you take the club back?

It's a little of each. Really, what you do is practice hitting with various lengths of pivot and club take back, and it becomes a feel issue amazingly quickly. The genius of the Utley techniques is that they let your natural athleticism take over, in contrast to the Pelz mechanical techniques.

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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What makes sense about it is really short pitches and chips where you have to judge and control a very short arm swing movement. With a very short backswing it is difficult to get enough momentum going back forward with arms only. As a result we take too much backswing and decellerate into the ball.

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It's a little of each. Really, what you do is practice hitting with various lengths of pivot and club take back, and it becomes a feel issue amazingly quickly. The genius of the Utley techniques is that they let your natural athleticism take over, in contrast to the Pelz mechanical techniques.

I would agree with that to an extent, but Utley's short game stuff is typically inside of about 40 yards, and the Pelz method for wedges kind of starts there (the clock stuff, or the "4x3" system - not talking about Pelz's chipping and short game stuff, which I've avoided reading on purpose).

In other words, I use both systems. Chips and pitches get "Utleyed." The times when I'm not paying attention and I take too short or too long a back-swing, I'll often realize it mid-swing and my body will try to speed up or slow down the club near impact - never good results there. For anything outside of 40 yards, the "clock" system gives me nine separate yardages from 40 to 115 yards for my three wedges. It's not a "feel-less" or "non-athletic" thing because conditions rarely if ever give you those exact yardages, greens react differently, etc. So you're still saying "Okay, take my 9:00 swing, but grip down half an inch and try to keep the ball flight down a bit."

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I would agree with that to an extent, but Utley's short game stuff is typically inside of about 40 yards, and the Pelz method for wedges kind of starts there (the clock stuff, or the "4x3" system - not talking about Pelz's chipping and short game stuff, which I've avoided reading on purpose).

This is correct. I typically don't use Utley's technique for half-wedges or longer shots, and I use the clock as a starting point. In fact, you convincing me to use the Pelz technique for partial shots (to go with the Utley short game techniques) helped my game immensely about a year ago, either shortly before or shortly after I broke 90 for the first time.

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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I must admit not reading Utley's book(s), but have seen the youtube summaries and other comments.

As a Pelz follower, I find Utley's ideas require too much coordination, too many moving parts, too much timing.

For putting and chipping, the pendulum swing ensures the longest time on the correct path and maximizes the possible correct contact if you are hitting the ball incorrectly (too early/too late). Utley appears to be concerned with correct angle at impact, 90* to swing arc. Given a correctly timed contact, the 90* angle gives the correct hit along the line. But early or late contact means that you are hitting along the wrong path. Open or closed face (not 90*) at point of contact also leads to the wrong path. So to use Utley's method, you have to time the contact correctly with a good arc with good angle to get a good putt or chip. Pelz's method allows for incorrect timing to produce at least the correct path and less error with a incorrect face angle.

Pelz emphasizes tempo in putting and chipping. I think you can have tempo without moving your knees or waist. My biggest issues are being too slow or not accelerating properly with my putting/chipping/pitching swing. Utley's premise that knees and waist motion is needed for tempo is IMHO incorrect. All it is doing is adding other motions into the swing.

IMHO putting, chipping and pitching do not require full power. Thus, a complete golf swing motion is not needed. These swings require consistent, measured swings.

I guess Utley is suggesting that you do not want to have another swing for putting or chipping. But his abbreviated swing is not really a full swing either. Just something that is more like your full swing.

Using Pelz methodology I have 3 swings -- full, pitch swing (little or no legs; arms and wrist motion ) and putting/chipping/knock downs ( only arms -- different setups)
Michael Krolewski

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As a Pelz follower, I find Utley's ideas require too much coordination, too many moving parts, too much timing.

I'm not going to quote the rest of what you've said, but I think that anyone who follows the Utley method feels quite the opposite of you. Most people would feel that the arc putting and chipping strokes require less timing because the club is always on plane.

Pelz's most famous student doesn't even follow Pelz's putting methods. 95% of what he uses Pelz for is his statistical short game analysis.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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I'm not going to quote the rest of what you've said, but I think that anyone who follows the Utley method feels quite the opposite of you. Most people would feel that the arc putting and chipping strokes require less timing because the club is always on plane.

I agree. Utley's ideas are based upon using the most simple swing that you can. On his chipping technique, your grip end barely even moves. There is really not much "timing" to his technique. There definitely isn't as much timing involved as there is when your grip moves further out. Utley's technique seems to be more simple.

Bryan A
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OK, I'll bite. Again, I have not completely read Utley.

Granted, Utley is a professional golfer with tons of experience. I have no doubt he can and does execute his putting/chipping swing methodology incredibly well and with great results.

But I am not Utley. I am a real person, with too little time or desire to train hard. I want a simple reproducible putting/chipping swing.

I see lots of golfer that use various methods eg not Pelz or Utley. I have never figured how someone uses the same stroke length for different putting/chipping distances ( variable acceleration?) or does that putting punch/jab (no follow through) or how someone chips with only one club or how someone pitches with only one club.

How does Utley methodology produce an easy, reproducible swing with consistent results?


I believe I am correct in stating that Utley is espousing an in-out-in swing arc where the only correct point of contact is when the face is at the "center" of the swing (arc) and the club face is perpendicular to that arc, using no hands, shoulder swing and associated with a small hip/knee shift (to improve tempo). Kinda like a baby full swing (not really of course -- but much more then Pelz swing)

If this is incorrect, what is a better description.

How is the Utley swing simple?

Is this not a "timing" swing? If you hit the ball one inch behind the center of the swing, where would it go? (way right) or one inch past the center ? (way left) What if you are 1/4" before or after the "center"? If your hip/knee motion is mistimed, does this cause similar problems. I believe I read 1* off line putt from 10 feet will miss the hole. If this is a "timing" swing, what happens as you get excited, tired or you tense up?

One might say the same for a full swing eg a full swing in a timing problem. Which I believe it is -- trying to deliver maximum velocity/acceleration of a squared club face while moving hips, arms, hands, etc. to a specific point (the ball). And a generally difficult to master swing.

Pelz's putting/chipping swing is always along the line. Only moving part is the shoulders. No hands. No lower body motion to compensate for. No hip turn. Sounds simpler.

What am I missing in this discussion? Could someone explain why Utley is better? What is it bringing to the table?





In a pendulum swing, one could suggest that the club is swinging in an arc -- higher off the ground at either end, touching/below the ground at the center although the club is alway moving along the putting/chipping path. With the possibility of miss hits due to early or late contact. I realize the ball will behave less optimally if you are early or late. But it should travel the same line.

Utley's swing also has the high at the ends, low at the center. Or is the stroke really level with the ground for the entire swing? Again, how is Utley's better?




Finally, my observation is that the measured backswing in a critical part (an innovation?) of Pelz putting and chipping swing. Generating a measured output distance based on a measured input. Is Utley espousing anything similar?
Michael Krolewski

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I want a simple reproducible putting/chipping swing.

Which is why I said what I said: that for most people, the

Utley method requires the least amount of "timing" and work. It's the "simplest" method. It speaks to why I feel - and this has been backed by people who are in the know - that the arc stroke with an opening and closing putter face (relative to the target line) is the simplest, easiest-to-reproduce stroke out there. Even Pelz doesn't push his "square to square" putting stroke on Phil Mickelson.
I believe I am correct in stating that Utley is espousing an in-out-in swing arc where the only correct point of contact is when the face is at the "center" of the swing (arc) and the club face is perpendicular to that arc, using no hands, shoulder swing and associated with a small hip/knee shift (to improve tempo). Kinda like a baby full swing

And because the ball doesn't move during the swing, the club is delivered back to the ball squarely.

How is the Utley swing simple?

Because it's not much different than the full swing? Why should you learn a bunch of different movements for a chip or pitch?

Is this not a "timing" swing?

No.

If you hit the ball one inch behind the center of the swing, where would it go? (way right) or one inch past the center ? (way left)

How could you? Does the ball move during your swing? No. You set up, and you return the clubhead back to where it was at setup.

If your hip/knee motion is mistimed, does this cause similar problems.

It can't be mis-timed. Not unless you're the most un-coordinated person on the planet who thinks that, I dunno, you swing down, hit the ball, and then move your hips. Backwards. And then moonwalk.

If I understand it correctly, the Pelz method requires several different kinds of swings for various shots. His putting method, which probably carries over into chipping, requires a bit of a "square to square" chipping stroke too, which is virtually impossible to carry out for anything longer than about a six inch stroke. Try this: take the club back to parallel (at hip height, not above your head height) straight back from the club AND oriented in the same direction as it was at setup. To do this, you'd have to manipulate your wrists like crazy and shove your arms away from your body. Good luck getting clean contact with the ball making that kind of movement - the wrist manipulation alone makes getting the "timing" right much more of an issue with the Pelz method than the Utley method. Because your arms are attached to your shoulders, and your shoulders are not directly above the ball, it's virtually impossible to take the club back straight along the target line as the Pelz method wants you to do (if I understand what you're telling us about the Pelz method correctly).
I believe I read 1* off line putt from 10 feet will miss the hole. If this is a "timing" swing, what happens as you get excited, tired or you tense up?

It's not a timing swing.

Sounds simpler.

... but isn't.

What am I missing in this discussion? Could someone explain why Utley is better?

Perhaps you should read his book.

Since I've repeated myself a few times already in this reply, I'll do it one more time, but by quoting myself:
I'm not going to quote the rest of what you've said, but I think that anyone who follows the Utley method feels quite the opposite of you. Most people would feel that the arc putting and chipping strokes require less timing because the club is always on plane.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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But I am not Utley. I am a real person

I didn't realize Stan Utley wasn't a real person. This is news to me. What did you mean to say here?

It can't be mis-timed. Not unless you're the most un-coordinated person on the planet who thinks that, I dunno, you swing down, hit the ball, and then move your hips. Backwards. And then moonwalk.

This would make a great YouTube video!

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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Is this not a "timing" swing? If you hit the ball one inch behind the center of the swing, where would it go? (way right) or one inch past the center ? (way left) What if you are 1/4" before or after the "center"? If your hip/knee motion is mistimed, does this cause similar problems. I believe I read 1* off line putt from 10 feet will miss the hole. If this is a "timing" swing, what happens as you get excited, tired or you tense up?

Actually, using Utley's swing, if you hit it thin or a little fat it still goes toward the target. The only difference is, if you hit it a little fat then it may not roll out as much and if you hit it a little thin then it will have more spin that you are used to....but it still goes toward the target and that is why it is a good chipping/pitching style. It's all explained in the book. Maybe you should read through the book...it seemed very simple to me.

I have not read Pelz's book yet, but I am going to read it as soon as I get done with Utley's putting book tonight. So I can't really comment on his book as of yet.

Bryan A
"Your desire to change must be greater than your desire to stay the same"

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