OMG Americans how do you use Pro V1's?

**Robiola the Monster** · July 7, 2009

I just got back from my trip to Los Angeles, visited my cousin and aunt. My cousin and I played alot of the local golf courses e.g. Virginia CC, Bel-Air CC, Lakewood GC (think thats what they were, two of them were private i think, but my cousin knows people luckily) & I couldn't believe how soft the greens were. It hadn't been raining but all the greens were soft enough to spin the ball back more than 2 metres every time you hit anything less than 6-iron. I was using a pro-v1x and my now old Titleist 990B (got my Z-B's yesterday) and vokeys to hit into the greens and I couldn't control my spin.
After the first couple of holes we had played at Bel-Air country club I was a couple over and my cousin just said to me something along the lines of "it took me along time to get used to" (as he is an aussie aswell).

I want to know how do you west-coast americans play on greens like this, sure they are nice and quick & roll true but you have to use a harder ball than the pro-v options to control your spin, or are you just used to it?

On the courses i play here in australia if you hit 6-iron its just one bounce and the ball stops, so the ball ends up like 1-2m from its pitch mark & i consider these greens average not rock-hard. Whats the east-coast americans version of a hard green.

No wonder tiger doesnt want to come to australia probaly still shoot unders though

**tjy355** · July 7, 2009

I just got back from my trip to Los Angeles, ... & I couldn't believe how soft the greens were. It hadn't been raining but all the greens were soft enough to spin the ball back more than 2 metres every time you hit anything less than 6-iron.

I don't think it is limited to the west coast, American golf has evolved, generally speaking, to more of an aerial game with softer playing surfaces.

I chalk it up to the "Augusta Syndrome," where we have come to expect the lush green conditions like we see on TV. Unfortunately, plush green translates to soft and slow and diminished playability. For some reason, soft greens have seem to become the "gold standard" for conditioning. The reality is that lobbing darts onto receptive greens is not particularly challenging so the skills needed to play firm and fast conditions are not developed. I read on this forum all the time where someone encounters firm greens and can't adjust to them and subsequently dismiss the course as having "poor conditions." Slowly, the perception is changing as the joys of firm fast conditions are being discovered by more players, unfortunately there are just too many golfers in the USA that expect and demand plush green and squawk about any visible brown spots.

**TN94z** · July 7, 2009

I don't think it is limited to the west coast, American golf has evolved, generally speaking, to more of an aerial game with softer playing surfaces.

A receptive green doesn't necessarily mean plush and slow! The courses I play on have brown spots, are fast, and the ball will bite and back up no problem while leaving a half a ball deep ball mark. I know the greens you are talking about and those aren't really "good" greens. From my experience, when a course has really thick, plush greens...that is a sign that they almost lost them and they are trying to get them back in shape.

**michaeljames92** · July 7, 2009

My course has some of the quickest greens. you need to learn to play a cut with long irons to hold our greens. Some greens with back pin positions, you can run off the back in summer, they can be nightmare fast.

**GaijinGolfer** · July 7, 2009

It is true that golf in America has turned into more of an aerial game. The greens typical are guarded by bunkers and have other features that encourage high shots with lots of backspin that land soft.
Thats why hybrids have replaced long irons so quickly.

**Leftygolfer** · July 7, 2009

I enjoy greens that are well maintained. I disagree with a poster above who says there isn't any skill if the ball isn't running and stops were it lands. Golf is hard regardless of the softness of the greens. I play courses that are airrated twice a year and I can stop the ball if I hit it with some height. I think this is more fun than having to play for 5 yards short and get lucky to get it close with a 8 iron.

But to each there own. I like target golf. I am not that good. Still plenty challenging.

**TN94z** · July 7, 2009

My thing about the non-US greens referenced above, is that you can have topped shots, any kind of bump and run shots, low shots that come up short distance-wise but them run up, etc...and they will run up to the pin as long as you have some kind of feel for the distance. It seems harder IMO to be able to control your distance in the air....and then you have to control the spin. I don't know...I guess to each his own.

***iacas*** · July 7, 2009

Not just an aerial game, but a target game. The run-up area has long been missing from a lot of golf courses in the U.S., and so greens have to be a bit softer to accommodate.

Plus, I think the green conditions people want play into it as a side effect of "we have to water so it stays green."

I prefer firmer greens. But softer greens present their challenges, too - getting the ball to release is tough.

songwriter · July 7, 2009

The OP may be talking about greens with bent grass. I am amazed at how soft those can be. The ball leaves a HOLE in the green half as big as the ball. We don't have that in the south where I live. Couple of courses tried it but couldn't maintain it due to the heat. In general, our greens hold but they are not THAT soft. Just a pitch mark and the ball stops within 1-3 yards on most well-struck shots.

**tjy355** · July 7, 2009

A receptive green doesn't necessarily mean plush and slow! The courses I play on have brown spots, are fast, and the ball will bite and back up no problem while leaving a half a ball deep ball mark. I know the greens you are talking about and those aren't really "good" greens.

I'm not saying a very soft green is a good green, but it does seem that many consider these conditions as good. Certainly a green should be receptive to a well struck shot. A pitch mark that is half a ball deep is pretty soft if you ask me.

My thing about the non-US greens referenced above, is that you can have topped shots, any kind of bump and run shots, low shots that come up short distance-wise but them run up, etc...and they will run up to the pin as long as you have some kind of feel for the distance. It seems harder IMO to be able to control your distance in the air....and then you have to control the spin. I don't know...I guess to each his own.

Why is a poorly executed ground shot that ends up close to the pin different than a poorly executed aerial shot that sticks and holds on the green when it probably shouldn't ?

"... they will run up to the pin as long as you have some kind of feel for the distance." Doesn't a feel for distance take some skill? Are there not contours and breaks that have to be considered with a ground shot? You seem to think that a well executed bump and run is no different than a missed shot that ends up rolling onto the green. Granted, a flat green with flat surrounds doesn't present much challenge however you approach it, but an interesting and well designed green will repel poorly struck shots whether they come from the ground or the air. Nothing wrong with a hole that demands an aerial approach. But I'm not too keen on 18 such holes on a single golf course. Interesting golf is about variety and options. Fun golf is about thinking and executing the shot that gives the best chance to score. To me, a game where every shot is dictated by the design and or the conditions becomes repetitive and boring. Maintaining a course with very soft conditions serves to reduce the playability options, that's all I'm saying.

**TN94z** · July 7, 2009

I'm not saying a very soft green is a good green, but it does seem that many consider these conditions as good. Certainly a green should be receptive to a well struck shot. A pitch mark that is half a ball deep is pretty soft if you ask me.

We have greens that I play on that will have a nice ball mark and be so fast that you can run them off the green if you aren't careful. Those are NICE greens!

The ground shots that I am referring to are the ones that the golfer is trying to hit in the air and hits it thin and instead of being penalized, the ball runs up to the green anyway. That, to me, is very different. Most :poorly executed aerial shots" don't end up on the green....if they do, then they were probably pretty descent shot. Distance does take some feel and a bump and run does take some skill....but there is less room for error in these shots. That is why they tell high handicappers to hit these around the green. I agree on the well designed greens. I haven't played a course yet that didn't offer many options. You must think on the majority of golf courses in my area...every course actually. You must think about where to miss, where to land your tee shot to have the best angle, etc....no matter what course. I can't think of a course anywhere around me that doesn't give you the opportunity to bump and run shots to the green if you want to. There are very few courses that are 100% surrounded by bunkers. In the southeast it is almost impossible to maintain a course with very soft conditions! The temps reach 100 here almost daily and it is some of the most humid weather in the US. I see what you are saying and everyone's opinions vary. To me, the courses where you have to get the ball up and adjust trajectory for wind, temps, elevation, carry hazards, etc...is harder than pulling out a 7i and bumping a shot that will ultimately spend more time on the ground that in air. While it does take skill to have distance control on the bump and run, it just seems easier.

**Robiola the Monster** · July 8, 2009

The greens i play on here in aus are pretty hard 95% of the time all year round and when i thin shots, mis-hit etc. they dont run up onto the green... ever.... they roll down into feeding areas where it is a c#nt to get up and down from & if you mis-hit it and it doesnt go into a feeding area it goes into a pond or bunker ... the greens i played on in the US were way softer and it was so annoying to see your wedge shot come half way back to you and yet see someone in another group hitting long irons in and stopping it

**TN94z** · July 8, 2009

The greens i play on here in aus are pretty hard 95% of the time all year round and when i thin shots, mis-hit etc. they dont run up onto the green... ever.... they roll down into feeding areas where it is a c#nt to get up and down from & if you mis-hit it and it doesnt go into a feeding area it goes into a pond or bunker

I see what you are saying.

**tjy355** · July 8, 2009

The ground shots that I am referring to are the ones that the golfer is trying to hit in the air and hits it thin and instead of being penalized, the ball runs up to the green anyway. That, to me, is very different. Most :poorly executed aerial shots" don't end up on the green....if they do, then they were probably pretty descent shot.

More room for error, I think you mean. If contour is involved, a shot aimed at the flag but mishit (thin) probably won't get near the hole with firm conditions. I'm not really considering the high handicapper who struggles to hit solid shots regardless of conditions. I'm mainly looking at the point of view of a low to mid-low handicapper who can reasonably pull off a variety of shots. In any case, I'm not one that shares the view that the bad golfer benefits from less penal designs or conditions. A hole that is "easy" for a bad golfer should easy for a good golfer as well and in the long run, the better golfer will prevail. But that's a topic for a different thread perhaps

I see what you are saying and everyone's opinions vary. To me, the courses where you have to get the ball up and adjust trajectory for wind, temps, elevation, carry hazards, etc...is harder than pulling out a 7i and bumping a shot that will ultimately spend more time on the ground that in air. While it does take skill to have distance control on the bump and run, it just seems easier.

Maybe it's just me, but if I had the choice between a hard shot and an easy shot, I would tend to take the easy shot.

From my experience, in windy conditions, keeping the ball near the ground is beneficial. Like you said, it can be hard to judge what the wind is going to do with a ball lofted high in the air. With overly soft conditions, the ground option is taken away. Soft conditions call for a singular plan of attack. Bomb and gouge. With firm and fast conditions, I think it makes the golfer think a little more about how to hit the shot. A golfer that thinks too much makes mistakes and I think that is a characteristic of a good golf course design. Things that look easier than they are and things that look harder than they are.

**TN94z** · July 8, 2009

In any case, I'm not one that shares the view that the bad golfer benefits from less penal designs or conditions. A hole that is "easy" for a bad golfer should easy for a good golfer as well and in the long run, the better golfer will prevail.

I think that less penal courses are very beneficial for higher handicap golfers...I have seen that too many times first hand. An easy is just as easy for the good golfer as it is for the worse one. But the hard holes are twice as hard for the worse golfer as they are for the good golfer.

Oh I take the easy shot all of the time...that is part of my options. The ground option may be taken away on soft conditions as far as fairways are concerned, but it shouldn't make a lot of difference if it is just soft greens...I am speaking of approach shots. The only difference would be figuring out how far it will roll out....just like you have to do on firm and fast conditions. The bomb and gouge theory....I am confused, are we talking about a soft golf course, everything included? I have just been referring to soft greens and approach shots. Bomb and gouge has nothing to do with soft greens. If the entire course is soft, for some reason, then I see what you are saying. I agree with the thinking part. I just think that a golfer has to think just as much on soft greens as he does on form and fast greens.

**tjy355** · July 8, 2009

I agree with the thinking part. I just think that a golfer has to think just as much on soft greens as he does on firm and fast greens.

We agree to disagree.

I just think a softer green will be more receptive of an indifferent shot where the firm green is going to require more precision.

**Zeph** · July 8, 2009

It is true that golf in America has turned into more of an aerial game. The greens typical are guarded by bunkers and have other features that encourage high shots with lots of backspin that land soft.

I'm not using my hybrids much anymore, but do you get any spin with them compared to irons?

**TN94z** · July 8, 2009

We agree to disagree.

I hear you....and I am not trying to argue, I swear

I can agree with this statement for the most part.

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OMG Americans how do you use Pro V1's?

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