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Ruling Question: Can you assume a ball went into a water hazard?

post #1 of 12
8/24/09 at 3:38pm
Thread Starter 
The hole is a dogleg right about 370 yards, there is water that comes into play about 270 out to the right but is basically blind from the tee due to a grove of trees in between the tee and the pond.

I playing competitor hits his ball right off the tee, no one hears and banging around in the trees or a splash in the lake. Myself and the 3rd member of our group saw the ball going right but never saw it down and our playing competitor never saw it down either.

We walked around that area both in the woods and down by the lake and never found his ball. He prompted dropped a ball two club lengths from where he though the ball would have entered the water hazard.

My question is, can you assume that? Sure there are a lot of different variables in play here but no one saw the ball go into the water hazard so is that considered a lost ball and he would have to go back to the tee?
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post #2 of 12
8/24/09 at 3:50pm

Re: Ruling Question: Can you assume a ball went into a water hazard?

No, you can't assume it. The wording is (emphasis mine):

Source: USGA Rule 26-1
It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.



Rule 27-1 is the lost ball rule.

In the future, you can look this stuff up for yourself: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules...and-Decisions/ .
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post #3 of 12
8/24/09 at 5:20pm

Re: Ruling Question: Can you assume a ball went into a water hazard?

Can you hear a ball splash from 270 yards away?

If you see the ball enter the hazard and is absolutely certain it is in there, but can't find it, you can take a drop. If you never actually see the ball go into the hazard, you can't be sure if it's really there.
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post #4 of 12
8/24/09 at 5:51pm

Re: Ruling Question: Can you assume a ball went into a water hazard?

Virtually certain is still judgmental and many times depends on course knowledge. Considering the "relative" rarity of a lost ball in a non-hazard, if the ball is was clearly heading toward a known hazard and is subsequently never found, I don't know how you could not consider that "virtually certain". If you walk up and spend 5 minutes looking EVERYWHERE else without finding it, I would argue its a virtual certainty the ball is in the hazard, but its certainly debatable.
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post #5 of 12
8/24/09 at 5:54pm

Re: Ruling Question: Can you assume a ball went into a water hazard?

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Can you hear a ball splash from 270 yards away?

If you see the ball enter the hazard and is absolutely certain it is in there, but can't find it, you can take a drop. If you never actually see the ball go into the hazard, you can't be sure if it's really there.
Wrong the rule isn't absolutely certain, its virtually certain.
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post #6 of 12
8/24/09 at 8:16pm

Re: Ruling Question: Can you assume a ball went into a water hazard?

Then the question is how you define "virtually" and in which situations you can use this rule.
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post #7 of 12
8/24/09 at 8:20pm

Re: Ruling Question: Can you assume a ball went into a water hazard?

I'd say if a ball is headed towards a hazard, has the carry to get to the hazard and an honest effort is spent looking for said ball without locating it, then IMO it is virtually certain it's in the hazard.
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post #8 of 12
8/25/09 at 1:31am

Re: Ruling Question: Can you assume a ball went into a water hazard?

Originally Posted by Bug Bunny View Post
I'd say if a ball is headed towards a hazard, has the carry to get to the hazard and an honest effort is spent looking for said ball without locating it, then IMO it is virtually certain it's in the hazard.
Yep, I think you need a visual on the ball coming down so you can determine a line on which to look for the ball. From the sound of the OP situation, it sounds like it was around a dogleg and there would be no way to know a line the ball would be on toward the pond - especially if the ball hit trees. In this case, I would say that the guy should have played under the lost ball rule and rehit.
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post #9 of 12
8/25/09 at 2:22am

Re: Ruling Question: Can you assume a ball went into a water hazard?

270 and right is a long carry.

How deep was the rough short of the water?
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post #10 of 12
8/25/09 at 3:24am

Re: Ruling Question: Can you assume a ball went into a water hazard?

The ball is lost... If no one is able to have seen the ball go into the hazard then how do we know it is in the hazard? It is easily safe to say the ball go stuck in a tree...
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post #11 of 12
8/25/09 at 3:29am

Re: Ruling Question: Can you assume a ball went into a water hazard?

Originally Posted by Jay-Bird View Post
270 and right is a long carry.

How deep was the rough short of the water?
I don't think he carried it the far though. I think he just hit it 270 right into the water and it may have rolled in or whatever but it's blind over there.
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post #12 of 12
8/25/09 at 6:39am

Re: Ruling Question: Can you assume a ball went into a water hazard?

In the originally stated situation, if there is anyplace where the ball could be lost outside of the water hazard (deep rough, brush, etc.), then you do NOT have virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard. Lacking any other evidence, the ball must be deemed lost outside of the hazard and Rule 27 is in effect.
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