HDCP Question

**mattttt25** · July 8, 2010

Played the other day with a self-proclaimed single digit handicap. He was good, no reason not to believe him. But during the round and a particularly bad hole on his part, we were discussing handicap and he stated something to the affect of not being able to take more than a double because of his handicap. The idea was it would somehow skew his handicap and wasn't what he should do. I thought it sounded like complete BS, if he shot a snowman, it should be recorded.

Tell me he was completely wrong and that I'm not missing something.

**Shanks A Million** · July 8, 2010

Played the other day with a self-proclaimed single digit handicap. He was good, no reason not to believe him. But during the round and a particularly bad hole on his part, we were discussing handicap and he stated something to the affect of not being able to take more than a double because of his handicap. The idea was it would somehow skew his handicap and wasn't what he should do. I thought it sounded like complete BS, if he shot a snowman, it should be recorded.

Depends on the system, course handicap, etc. There's a maximum score you can take on a single hole in most handicapping systems.

Actually, I just found out I've been taking too many strokes. I'm supposed to take a maximum of double on a hole at a 136 slope course, but I've been taking triples. Damn, going to have to figure that one out.

**James_Black** · July 8, 2010

in Ireland we use the stableford system for most scores.

The most a 18 handicap can post for a hole is a double bogey.
I think that's what he was referring to.

**mattttt25** · July 8, 2010

Can you guys better explain? This makes no sense to me. The guy shoots an honest 7. Why does he not record a 7? Doesn't the handicap system depend on honest, actual scores to be recorded? Doesn't the best 10 of the past 20 rounds thing eliminate the ba round anyway? I'm just confused.

**Shanks A Million** · July 8, 2010

Can you guys better explain? This makes no sense to me. The guy shoots an honest 7. Why does he not record a 7? Doesn't the handicap system depend on honest, actual scores to be recorded? Doesn't the best 10 of the past 20 rounds thing eliminate the ba round anyway? I'm just confused.

Handicapping is not well understood by most people, including me, but there are some things to consider. It's not about scores, it's about performance. If I go out and score 17 pars and a 22 on a par 5, does that mean my abilities are that of a double digit handicap? No way. My average (median, not mean) performance on each hole was much closer to even par.

Handicaps are not meant to reflect scores in any way. A 20 handicap will not average +20. If all courses were the same, and all conditions the same, then maybe, but not in the real world. The system tries to match his median scores with that of a scratch golfer. If a 0 and a 20 go play 10 rounds, the idea is that the 20 should win 1/2, and the 0 should win 1/2. Because a 20 is likely to shoot scores in a wider range than a 0, it's calculated into the system.

**mattttt25** · July 8, 2010

OK, somewhat making more sense. I do understand that it doesn't directly relate to par, and that the course slope and rating factor into the equation.

But I guess I still struggle with not recording an actual score. Your example- depends on how you define ability. If you truly shot par on everything and then a 22 on the final hole, well I'd say you got a serious problem, and maybe I am the one with more ability in being able to scrape by with 5's and 6's on every hole.

I don't keep a true handicap, but lets say I did. So I go out and shoot a mix of pars, bogeys, and doubles. One nasty hole I shoot a 10. When I enter my score, will the system adjust for that 10? Take it away? I guess I just want to fully understand this, my engineering mind can't let it go.

**James_Black** · July 8, 2010

Can you guys better explain? This makes no sense to me. The guy shoots an honest 7. Why does he not record a 7? Doesn't the handicap system depend on honest, actual scores to be recorded? Doesn't the best 10 of the past 20 rounds thing eliminate the ba round anyway? I'm just confused.

The stableford system works using "points".

36 points is meant to be level to your handicap. (2 points every hole) for a 18 handicapper they get a shot on every hole so a bogey is worth 2 points. a double is worth 1, and a triple is worth nothing. the system doesn't record the triple so you don't have to put it down. edit: In america I think you use net scores most of the time? Then he has to enter all his scores.

**shades9323** · July 8, 2010

Your playing partner was correct.

I don't keep a true handicap, but lets say I did. So I go out and shoot a mix of pars, bogeys, and doubles. One nasty hole I shoot a 10. When I enter my score, will the system adjust for that 10? Take it away? I guess I just want to fully understand this, my engineering mind can't let it go.

If you enter your scores as totals the system won't know.

What you are referring to is ESC(equitable stroke control). You can read about it here: http://www.usga.org/handicapping/art...rol-Procedure/ and here: http://golf.about.com/cs/handicapping/a/whatisesc.htm

**TN94z** · July 8, 2010

It is the ESC..basically when you are keeping your handicap, if you are a in a certain range of handicap you have a stroke limit which keeps a really bad hole from mis-representing you true potential or skill level.

For instance, at my home course, a double is my stroke limit. So if I make a 13 (God forbid) on a par 3, it will not totally ruin my handicap

**msd3075** · July 8, 2010

OK, somewhat making more sense. I do understand that it doesn't directly relate to par, and that the course slope and rating factor into the equation.

What you need to understand first is what a handicap represents, how it's calculated, and how it should be used. It is NOT an average of all your scores. It is NOT meant to mean how many over par you should shoot. It is meant to serve two major purposes; to compare your scores between different courses with different degrees of difficulty and to allow you to compete against someone of a different playing ability on an "even" playing field. Yeah, you can research slope and course rating and how the actual number is calculated, but the only thing you really need to know about the calculation is that you take the best 10 "differentials" out of your most recent 20 rounds. It's not always your lowest scores because with slope/CR factored in your 85 on a hard course might have a lower differential than the 78 you shot on an easy course form the senior tees. The reason for taking your best scores is because your handicap is set up to represent your potential , not you average . Seeing as the purpose of the handicap is to allow you to play someone else better/worse than you, the system needs to be set up to reward the player that plays his/her best that day. It wouldn't be fair for Mr Consistent to play Mr. Streaky is the latter get 3-4 more strokes simply because his bad days are really bad, especially if he's capable of shooting a good round on a good day. Saying all of this, ESC serves a few functions. First, it prevents someone from claiming a higher handicap (and thus getting extra strokes) simply because they had a few blow-up holes despite the fact they are perfectly capable of not having those holes during a good (handicap-counting) round. Since your handicap is meant to show your potential , it should not include these blow-up holes. Second, if you are playing in a match play round in which you are getting handicap strokes, a player that doesn't follow ESC and includes his blow-up scores would be given additional strokes he spreads out during the round on different holes even though those multiple strokes are based upon the score on a single hole; he'd be getting strokes where he doesn't deserve them. This topic can go on and on, but hopefully that helps you out a bit.

**TourSpoon** · July 8, 2010

The one thing that I will call BS on is that he gets what he gets on the card and then adjusts his score under Equitable Stroke Control for handicap purposes when he posts his score for handicap. One of my pet peeves is the guy who gets an 8 then says to give him a 6 and later says he shot 78 when he really shot 80. No you shot an 80, but for handicap you will post a 78 in the computer.

**alomar123** · July 8, 2010

The one thing that I will call BS on is that he gets what he gets on the card and then adjusts his score under Equitable Stroke Control for handicap purposes when he posts his score for handicap. One of my pet peeves is the guy who gets an 8 then says to give him a 6 and later says he shot 78 when he really shot 80. No you shot an 80, but for handicap you will post a 78 in the computer.

I agree with you. The computer should know what to do with the score, so when he looks back at his scores the real score is still represented.

**TourSpoon** · July 8, 2010

I agree with you. The computer should know what to do with the score, so when he looks back at his scores the real score is still represented.

Actually, you manually adjust for ESC and then enter your adjusted total.

**jaragon126** · July 8, 2010

One of my pet peeves is the guy who gets an 8 then says to give him a 6 and later says he shot 78 when he really shot 80. No you shot an 80, but for handicap you will post a 78 in the computer.

You are exactly right TourSpoon, he shot an 80 for that round ... but for handicap posting purposes he records a 78 because of Equitable Stroke Control. The 78 shouldn't come up at any other time other than for posting to handicap system. So if you were playing for money or anything else, he shot an 80.

**Fourputt** · July 8, 2010

OK, somewhat making more sense. I do understand that it doesn't directly relate to par, and that the course slope and rating factor into the equation.

The USGA handicap system is designed to reflect a player's scoring

potential , not his average. To that end, it does not use what are considered to be unusual or aberrant scores, and that includes such scores for individual holes. My course handicap at my home course is currently 14. That means the highest score I can return for handicap is a 7 on any hole. If I play a round of 85, but that includes a triple bogey 8 on a par 5, then I still use that 8 for my score . The score is the score. I shot an 85, and that's what I have to use for wagering, or competition, or just for bragging purposes. However, when I post the score on the computer, I have to adjust the 8 to a 7, and record a score of 84. The system deems that 8 is an unusual score for player of my ability (which it is - I don't score an 8 more often than once every 4 or 5 rounds). Thus it is not seen as proper to include it in the calculation. In the same way, the system only uses the best 10 of your last 20 scores to figure your handicap index. The same reasoning is used... your handicap is based on potential, and the average of your lowest scores reflects your scoring potential. Any scores which are unusually high will never be used unless your entire game goes to hell and you turn in enough high scores for them to break into the low 10.

**sean_miller** · July 8, 2010

The one thing that I will call BS on is that he gets what he gets on the card and then adjusts his score under Equitable Stroke Control for handicap purposes when he posts his score for handicap. One of my pet peeves is the guy who gets an 8 then says to give him a 6 and later says he shot 78 when he really shot 80. No you shot an 80, but for handicap you will post a 78 in the computer.

Yeah, the OP's friend is full of it. He took 8, he must write down an 8. What he enters later for his index is irrelevant.

**2bGood** · July 8, 2010

I agree with you. The computer should know what to do with the score, so when he looks back at his scores the real score is still represented.

On our system (RCGA) you can if you want enter a hole by hole score and teh it will adjust ESC for you . It will also keep stats for you on how you do on PAR 3,4 & 5. Of course it way more work to enter 18 holes rather then just subtract a stroke or two for ESC and enter one score.

**double_j** · July 8, 2010

I will make my usual contribution on this forum and just repeat what everyone else has already said.

Stroke control only applies for index calculation purposes. It does not apply in any other situation. If he's in a competition/match/tourney, etc., the real score is what counts.

If you weren't playing him I wouldn't worry too much about what he says he shot. That said, if he's lording it over you or something, then you have a pretty snappy comeback to call him out in front of whoever he may be bragging to.

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