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Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

post #1 of 37
8/29/10 at 3:11am
Thread Starter 
A quickie video showing how side tilting is what helps the shoulders to rotate in a circle.

Again, a quickie, but I welcome discussion on this issue...

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post #2 of 37
8/29/10 at 8:33am

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Interesting thread.

I've always tried to keep a flat shoulder turn because I was afraid of coming OTT.
What sort of problems occur if you have a too flat/steep shoulder turn?
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post #3 of 37
8/29/10 at 12:23pm

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Thanks for the video Eric. Cool thing about this drill is if you are struggling on the course, you can use it to help right your swing. That's what I really like about the S&T method. BTW, people look at me like I'm looney when I do this drill in my front yard, so I go to the back yard.
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post #4 of 37
8/29/10 at 1:08pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Originally Posted by James_Black View Post
I've always tried to keep a flat shoulder turn because I was afraid of coming OTT.
It's not related. In fact, people who have flatter shoulder planes come over the top more than those who turn their shoulders on a steeper (the proper) pitch.

Originally Posted by James_Black View Post
What sort of problems occur if you have a too flat/steep shoulder turn?
First, almost nobody is too steep. So I'm not even going to address that.

Too flat, people:
a) have to keep their chins up, which makes them look at the ball out of the bottom of their eyes
b) their shoulders push their chins out of the way, causing their head to move during the swing (some push right, some lift their heads even higher)
c) people feel that they can't get to the top so they lift their arms off their chest, losing the connection points between their arms and their chest (in the armpits), etc.
d) the people that don't lift will over-flex their right and left elbows. You can't see it in this view, but the guy in the first part of the video bent his left elbow on the backswing and you can see his right elbow is flexed well past 90°.

The last two parts specifically will lead to an over-the-top move pretty easily as well as casting. The first two will lead to inconsistent contact.

It's much easier to turn your shoulders in a circle.

Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post
Thanks for the video Eric. Cool thing about this drill is if you are struggling on the course, you can use it to help right your swing. That's what I really like about the S&T method. BTW, people look at me like I'm looney when I do this drill in my front yard, so I go to the back yard.
Good idea.
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post #5 of 37
8/29/10 at 9:32pm

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Nice video.

Did a quickie check on two of my swings. One recent and one from spring this year. The recent one gave me 50º and 50º, on the earlier one my shoulders were 4º flatter. I'm using GIMP, so my measurements are a bit different from the ones Erik gets. 50º sounds like I'm 10º more upright, but I'm 10º steeper.

Notice also how his hips have turned at an angle, not parallel to the ground. Easily seen on his belt and the back knee straightening.
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post #6 of 37
8/30/10 at 4:57am

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

I struggle with being too flat and will try to focus on using this drill. Nice thing is it can be done anywhere. Good video; thanks for it.
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post #7 of 37
8/30/10 at 7:39pm

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Just curious, what software are you using to draw those lines on the video with the angles?
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post #8 of 37
8/30/10 at 8:52pm

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

I've been working really hard on exactly this. When it goes well I get mad extra compression, a beautiful baby draw, and 15-20 yards extra on my 8i, for instance. I have a couple problems though. When I first started with this I'd end up doing a big reverse tilt, leaning way forward during the back swing. Then my upper body was basically pointing left of the target line, so I'd either stay that way and get a straight pull, or I'd end up yanking my front shoulder up and sort of scooping from way inside, and either get a straight push, big draw to the target, or push hook that ended up way left of the target, depending on how closed I got the face.

I've been trying to work this better shoulder pitch while keeping my spine in the exact same place. This gets the feeling the Els talks about, getting your front shoulder behind the ball. Here I have a problem fighting the sway back onto my back foot, ending up facing right of the target, from where I generally hit really nice straight pushes ~30 yards right of my target.

Still working on it...
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post #9 of 37
8/30/10 at 9:35pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85 View Post
Just curious, what software are you using to draw those lines on the video with the angles?
Analyzr. Home and Pro versions ship in a month.

Originally Posted by mdl View Post
When I first started with this I'd end up doing a big reverse tilt, leaning way forward during the back swing.
When in the swing? At P4 (top of backswing)? If that's the case, it's not the side tilting that's doing it. You can see I overdo the side tilt. You were over-extending - actually almost arching your back Fosbury Flop style...

It's not side tilting that's going to do this (assuming a 90 degree shoulder turn) because that tilting is perpendicular to your target line.

I will also say that rates matter too. If you side tilt from the start quickly, your head will go forward and down before the rotation brings it back. If you side tilt too much your head will be too low - but not too far forward. That's an extension piece. If you extend too quickly, your head will go up, too. Rates matter as well...

Originally Posted by mdl View Post
I've been trying to work this better shoulder pitch while keeping my spine in the exact same place. This gets the feeling the Els talks about, getting your front shoulder behind the ball.
Hmmm. I don't know about that. First, your spine doesn't stay in the same spot. It tilts and extends. The upper part of your spine (i.e. from your shoulders to your neck, roughly) should stay the same - that's why your head doesn't move and you can rotate your shoulders in a circle.

I think a lot of people who try to "get their shoulder behind the ball" end up translating WAY off the ball.

Originally Posted by mdl View Post
Here I have a problem fighting the sway back onto my back foot
Yep, that's the translating off the ball.
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post #10 of 37
8/30/10 at 9:57pm

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

That videos a keeper. Like how your arms stay on the body and get deep. Working on copying that!

Erik, have you ever seen anyone turn the shoulders too steep? Pretty tough to do
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post #11 of 37
8/30/10 at 10:03pm

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Analyzr. Home and Pro versions ship in a month.
Where would I be able to get it from and what is the price going to be?
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post #12 of 37
8/30/10 at 10:13pm

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
A quickie video showing how side tilting is what helps the shoulders to rotate in a circle.

Again, a quickie, but I welcome discussion on this issue...

I like the way you explained all the angles. The first drill I ever did just over a year ago was putting the club behind your head and while you turn try and point it to the ground. Really helped me alot when I first started out. I def will try to take my normal swing and then add the club across to see where I am actually tilting. Great vid
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post #13 of 37
8/30/10 at 11:30pm

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Anyone catch The Golf Fix tonight lol.
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post #14 of 37
8/31/10 at 12:34am
Thread Starter 

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85 View Post
Where would I be able to get it from and what is the price going to be?
Where? Our website. Price? $49.95 or $495.

Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Anyone catch The Golf Fix tonight lol.
Why?
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post #15 of 37
8/31/10 at 3:12am

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Why?
Breed was showing how to get the shoulders steeper, like Kuchar was explainning in the press room. Breed placed a club across his chest and tried to make it point more downward.

Kept his right leg too flexed though
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post #16 of 37
8/31/10 at 3:43am

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Originally Posted by mvmac View Post
Breed was showing how to get the shoulders steeper, like Kuchar was explainning in the press room. Breed placed a club across his chest and tried to make it point more downward.

Kept his right leg too flexed though
Yes, he didn't do a very good job at it. I find it funny how alot of the S & T pieces are making their way into " tips " without anyone coming out and giving them credit where credit is due.
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post #17 of 37
8/31/10 at 12:56pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Yes, he didn't do a very good job at it. I find it funny how alot of the S & T pieces are making their way into " tips " without anyone coming out and giving them credit where credit is due.
Well a steeper shoulder pitch has always been a "tip" (as has a "flatter shoulder pitch") but the thing about S&T is that it tells you HOW to do the thing. Shoulder pitch is just side tilt, essentially. I have it recorded so I'll see it eventually, but I imagine Breed said "make the shaft point down more" instead of "side tilt more." The latter part is what S&T tells us... and it's new because S&T tells you HOW to get the shaft to point down more. S&T tells you HOW to keep your head still. S&T tells you HOW to get your weight forward at impact. Etc.

Originally Posted by mvmac View Post
Kept his right leg too flexed though
What's funny about that is that, as you know Michael, he doesn't do that in his real swing.
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post #18 of 37
8/31/10 at 3:08pm

Re: Driveway Sticks and Shoulder Pitch

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
When in the swing? At P4 (top of backswing)? If that's the case, it's not the side tilting that's doing it. You can see I overdo the side tilt. You were over-extending - actually almost arching your back Fosbury Flop style...

It's not side tilting that's going to do this (assuming a 90 degree shoulder turn) because that tilting is perpendicular to your target line.
Yes at P4. I think I got this because I've been thinking not about maintaining side tilt but about getting a more upright shoulder plane, which I was doing by envisioning drawing my back shoulder up and pushing my front shoulder down, which ended up for me being moving my front shoulder almost directly down and my back shoulder up and forward, tilting me forward.
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