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Could a decent touring pro beat the average "scratch" golfer, if he had to use 20 year old equipment?


trickymicky69
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I.e a Lee Westwood, Tiger Woods etc

They are using 20 year old equipment

By "scratch" golfer I mean an average club professional

Very strange question i know but I would love to hear peoples thoughts on the subject

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I think the golf pro would have a chance. On any given day a tour pro can play a bad round of golf.

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Unless it was on the pro's home course, I don't think it would be close. Westwood and Woods are probably a +8. The scoring average for PGA professionals 20 years ago was 71.2---same as it is this year. Of note, The Big Bertha driver was introduced in 1992

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The only reason the scratch golfer would stand a chance is that the touring pro isn't used to the old equipment. If you took a guy like Faldo or Norman from 1992 and transported them to 2012, they would destroy a scratch golfer most of the time (every now and then a pro shoots like an 76 and the scratch guy could beat them).  Irons, wedges, and putters just aren't that much better and that is like huge chunk of the game. And they could still drive that old ball with an old driver 260+ which is all you need to be competitive.

Originally Posted by trickymicky69

I.e a Lee Westwood, Tiger Woods etc

They are using 20 year old equipment

By "scratch" golfer I mean an average club professional

Very strange question i know but I would love to hear peoples thoughts on the subject

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Originally Posted by uttexas

Unless it was on the pro's home course, I don't think it would be close. Westwood and Woods are probably a +8. The scoring average for PGA professionals 20 years ago was 71.2---same as it is this year. Of note, The Big Bertha driver was introduced in 1992

Would that still include the fact that golf courses have been lengthened somewhat since then?

Taylormade RBZ 10.5 driver, Taylormade Burner 2.0 15 deg 3 wood, Mizuno JPX800 19deg hybrid, Taylormade Burner 2.0 4-PW, Titleist Vokey 52,56,60 rusty wedges, Odyssey White Ice #7 360gm tour weight, Bridgestone B330S

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Looking at the fact during the PGA Championship PGA of America professionals are able to qualify and sometimes even make the cut I don't see why one of them who is playing well can't do better than a PGA pro because well we've seen it happen.

 913 D2 8.5* with V2 66g stiff shaft

 910F 14.25 with Diamana stiff shaft

 i20 17, 20, and 23 hybrid 

 AP2 712 5-PW with Dynamic Gold S300 shaft

 54 and 60

 D66

 Tournament Edition 1600

 

 

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Interesting question, the biggest challenge for the Touring pro would be using the older golf balls and woods, I doubt the irons would have much impact on their scores.  A fairer and more accurate test would be for them to play best out of 7 tournament to eliminate the impact of a bad day on the overall results.  It also would depend if the course is a standard course or set up for a PGA Tour tournament since as a scratch golfer isn't typically playing on a course of that difficulty.

Joe Paradiso

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The OP is too vague. Those guys that qualify for the PGA are not scratch golfers. They are however club pros. But not average ones. They are the best 25 or so playing PGA members in the country.

Originally Posted by xmanhockey7

Looking at the fact during the PGA Championship PGA of America professionals are able to qualify and sometimes even make the cut I don't see why one of them who is playing well can't do better than a PGA pro because well we've seen it happen.

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Would that still include the fact that golf courses have been lengthened somewhat since then?

1992/1993 average PGA tour player driving average about 265yards. Today's average "scratch" golfer driving average probably around 270yards.

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I think the tour pro would win fairly easily, these guys are way beyond scratch and a 20 yr old driver ain't that shabby.

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The way I look at this is how consistent PGA pros vs club pros hit the sweet spot of the club.  I don't know much about club design, but I'm under the impression if you can hit the sweet spot of the club every time, it wouldn't make much of a difference how old the club is (as long as it is fitted the same way as current clubs).  PGA pros hit the sweet spot practically every time, while club pros, it may be a little less consistent.  If this is true, I'd say the PGA pro will still win.

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plus the pro's short game would be that much better

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Tiger or Westwood, probably not a tough time for them. Remember Tiger has used blades and long irons for years, and would be one of the longest players on tour regardless. But he also has a great short game and used to be able to putt. The scratch golfer might score better on the par 5s, likely not getting any eagles but birdies on half or more. Tiger could score a birdie every time by laying up and simply par the rest of the holes. There are probably some par 5s he could still reach in 2, and he'd be able to hit near the pin where the pro would have a hard time even hitting the green at all. On par 3s, Tiger would be able to spin check a 3 iron with those balatas. Maybe he'd only hit it 190, but that's plenty. The pro would likely be using a hybrid from there anyway.

Now, take an elite pro from 1990, say Greg Norman, and have the modern scratch guy play him exactly as Greg was in the peak of his form, it would be a beatdown of epic proportions. I'd favor the shark by 5 strokes, and there's no course in the world that would change the outcome. Tiger or Westwood would need a couple weeks to prepare and relearn the older equipment and a pro like Jason Day who's young and never learned to play on those clubs really would struggle a bit more. The only way you could make a close match is to give the pro his bag without any chance to warm up or get used to the clubs. Every swing the pro takes would help him adapt, and would make his advantage better.

The distance issue between a guy like Tiger or Norman and a typical scratch player would be negated by the equipment. To say the scratch could gain an advantage over either man is ludicrous. 270 yards would be a great drive, a typical scratch player's average is more like 250 and they use that number to calibrate the course slope. You could even put the scratch on the next set of tees and make the pro play from the tips, and the balata balls would only help their stopping power and short game despite any loss off the tee. There are things you can do to a golf ball with a 120mph swing speed that technology cannot replicate.

Also, match play would potentially be less of an embarrassment to the scratch player, but stroke play would be easy for the pro since they live and breathe it.

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Adams Idea pro VST hybrid, 21˚, RIP Alpha 105x
Adams DHY 24˚, RIP Alpha 89x
5-PW Maltby TE irons, KBS C taper X, soft stepped once 130g
Mizuno T4, 54.9 KBS Wedge X
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Odyssey Metal X #1 putter 
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Wow. Great question.

At first blush, I wanted to say the tour pro, just out of respect for the status they've achieved.

But when you are comparing them with old equipment to club pros, I also have to respect the club pro's game, and to think they wouldn't have a shot at being a tour pro with the tour pro having what most people agree is a pretty significant handicap. Club pros have pretty damn good games too & I think they would beat the tour pro if the tour pro was playing persimmon & balata.

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Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

Tiger or Westwood, probably not a tough time for them. Remember Tiger has used blades and long irons for years, and would be one of the longest players on tour regardless. But he also has a great short game and used to be able to putt. The scratch golfer might score better on the par 5s, likely not getting any eagles but birdies on half or more. Tiger could score a birdie every time by laying up and simply par the rest of the holes. There are probably some par 5s he could still reach in 2, and he'd be able to hit near the pin where the pro would have a hard time even hitting the green at all. On par 3s, Tiger would be able to spin check a 3 iron with those balatas. Maybe he'd only hit it 190, but that's plenty. The pro would likely be using a hybrid from there anyway.

Now, take an elite pro from 1990, say Greg Norman, and have the modern scratch guy play him exactly as Greg was in the peak of his form, it would be a beatdown of epic proportions. I'd favor the shark by 5 strokes, and there's no course in the world that would change the outcome. Tiger or Westwood would need a couple weeks to prepare and relearn the older equipment and a pro like Jason Day who's young and never learned to play on those clubs really would struggle a bit more. The only way you could make a close match is to give the pro his bag without any chance to warm up or get used to the clubs. Every swing the pro takes would help him adapt, and would make his advantage better.

The distance issue between a guy like Tiger or Norman and a typical scratch player would be negated by the equipment. To say the scratch could gain an advantage over either man is ludicrous. 270 yards would be a great drive, a typical scratch player's average is more like 250 and they use that number to calibrate the course slope. You could even put the scratch on the next set of tees and make the pro play from the tips, and the balata balls would only help their stopping power and short game despite any loss off the tee. There are things you can do to a golf ball with a 120mph swing speed that technology cannot replicate.

Also, match play would potentially be less of an embarrassment to the scratch player, but stroke play would be easy for the pro since they live and breathe it.

Would they still have a 120mph swing speed with a steel driver?

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This video shows Greg getting 121mph with a steel driver. I have heard Greg was capable of 130+ at absolute full power, the same as Bubba today, but there's no real evidence. Clubhead speed has only been officially tracked since 2007 so that era didn't have any steel drivers anymore. I don't doubt for a second that players like young Nicklaus, Norman, early TW, Couples, and Daly would be able to swing at 115+ for a full round and hit solid drives if need be. Norman especially; he was famous for being able to hit towering, straight drives. Given they would get less forgiveness, but they did okay and any of them could hit driving irons off the tee all day. All they need to score is a shot in the fairway about 240, even on a modern course. That's child's play to any of those players, and anyone on tour could hit that far since about 1940.

The club length of 43" makes about 2-4mph of difference to a 45 inch driver, the shaft weight could be as little as 100g, which is only 20-30 grams heavier than most pro's shafts today unless they go lightweight. The driver head would be smaller and the total weight of the club would be perhaps as high as 40-50 grams over a typical 300-320g driver today. I can swing a steel driver over 110 without trying terribly hard and I'm not used to them. Tour players, and some of the greatest drivers of all time at that, would be able to swing 112 or more, the current tour average. The longest drivers in the early 90s were around 290 average, which is a 20-40yd advantage over a typical club pro. That is an average, meaning they could bust it over 300 frequently enough on driving holes. Technology is an advantage, but it's less of a factor than the swing in this case. Even Bobby Jones was known to hit over 300 yards on several occasions using hickory shafted clubs. That scratch player would be thrilled to do it once a round using a modern driver and his best swing, with a helping wind.

Even Hogan or Snead would probably be able to smoke the average club pro in a match. Hogan doesn't have the distance of some others, but he'd hit 16 or more GiR and probably get 5-6 birdies no problem, plus the opponent would be intimidated as hell.

The only way the club pro wins is either a big aberration of performance or if they get their handicap strokes. They don't really have any advantages in terms of performance

In My Bag:

Adams Super LS 9.5˚ driver, Aldila Phenom NL 65TX
Adams Super LS 15˚ fairway, Kusala black 72x
Adams Super LS 18˚ fairway, Aldila Rip'd NV 75TX
Adams Idea pro VST hybrid, 21˚, RIP Alpha 105x
Adams DHY 24˚, RIP Alpha 89x
5-PW Maltby TE irons, KBS C taper X, soft stepped once 130g
Mizuno T4, 54.9 KBS Wedge X
Mizuno R12 60.5, black nickel, KBS Wedge X
Odyssey Metal X #1 putter 
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Thats very impressive with "old" equipment

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Average "scratch" golfer scores 1/5th of his rounds level or under his hc, i.e. par. So maybe 20% chance, if pro has not a good day.

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Note: This thread is 4367 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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